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NewsRadio 1330 KNSS>Audio & Video on Demand>>Tues 8/12/14 Hr 4 - Eric Cline, author "1177 BC"

Tues 8/12/14 Hr 4 - Eric Cline, author "1177 BC"

Aug 13, 2014|

Eric Cline, author "1177 BC"

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

I'm John bachelor. This is the John bachelor show archaeology. Is detective work and a new book 1177. BC the years civilization collapsed by Aaron Klein. -- a marvelous detective story much like Sherlock Holmes eliminate the impossible whatever is left no matter how improbable is the truth. And what we're looking at here is evidence to point to a synthesis. That leads one conclusion. Civilization collapsed all of a sudden quickly. -- what were the driving. Decisions made what were the stress errors that forced that collapsed. And the excitement of Eric Klein and his work in classics and anthropology. Is that he goes to the sites he does the digs in the city. And it cities and the many layers of the cities all throughout the Middle East this is a vast canvas. Stretching from the -- all the way to Afghanistan. Our congratulations. And good evening -- you. I begin with one of the discoveries that become part of the mystery of your book and unpacking it. It's a ship. At that that sank an about a 10740. Feet of water and all of a room. It's a merchant ship and in the very careful reconstruction has taken place much in the late twentieth century. We know what's in that -- -- and -- and copper and rest in -- Bentley resin from pistachios. What does that hold tell you was an archaeologist what what compels you to come up with explanations this in that ship good evening to. Good evening and thank you for having me on the so it's wonderful to be here. The interview room shipwreck is there's some very -- George bass eligible who -- to a Turkish and German institute to vote for geology. In years in the eighty's and ninety's excavating it and it really is a microcosm. Of the global. As world that we had back in about thirteen hundred BC. Thing more than 3000 years ago that shifts which was traveling around and look. The eastern Mediterranean and these GM and other cargo that was -- -- fewer than seven different civilizations were societies. As it has but as you mentioned the term of the -- -- the -- -- It's got I agree it has brought laughs. It is absolutely amazing and when it sank. Somebody went bankrupt. We believe that this ship was part of trading routes that were well established the Afghanistan. Tin is being conjoined with the copper. From creek from the creek culture. And also there are gone out of their book there's glass on board does this mean this is the raw materials for manufacturing is that what we're seeing here. That is what we're saying is you've got the ten from Afghanistan. You're you're correct. The copper is more likely from Cyprus -- -- effect over the names Cyprus problem comes from the people's the proper. That is being mixed anywhere you want concrete as you say also in place in the increased social and sit -- Anatolia. Basically if you cut 90% copper and 10% ten you can make runs and we are in. The late bronze -- at this time it's the period from about 17100. Down to 12100 -- after which everything. Falls apart and a part of it it does does fall apart because. Access to things like him all the way from Afghanistan. May have been -- is that it may have been almost impossible to make bombs. After 12100 these things. They shipped as one of the clues will go to other clues in Eric's book. This is -- hotel the third's. These -- the -- -- side left behind. They form arm fortified oval and what's important is that each of the statues. Reproduces -- hotel upon the throne. But the important thing is the base of the statues because they tell -- story almost a travel log what what you get from that professor what are those clues. Well we have a number of these statue bases and probably -- publish that to overlook seismic intensity told. On the go to the -- is ruling in the first half of the fourteenth centuries so well thirteen -- one to thirteen 53 DC. Also 35. 3400 years ago. And on these statute -- list the names most of the world. Oldest known to the egyptians we have and it from Turkey mentioned we -- this Syrians we have the Babylonian we have Dubya. But on one particular statute basically have a list of names that can only be. From the news channel that is from mice and in Green -- and -- increased their. Names like icing and I am not being on and also also -- -- His name's sort of ever conceived -- before and quite frankly it will never be seen again -- -- they would say a one off this list. So I think it's not just the world known to the egyptians actually think it's. Geographical itinerary. Does it seems to. Describe -- Williams believes Egypt whose book decreased. Visits from girlfriends from the little ones that continues so and so it. Mainland agrees visits the new rising power of the Palestinians. And other aspect creates and from there back again to -- What we have here are up about an assembly of clues and the first two -- the ship and then this travel laws because I was taught. As a student many years ago in the twentieth century professor that at this period of time Egypt was all powerful. And the only offset to Egypt where the rising powers in Mesopotamia. I learned from you however that while Egypt is prominent. There is the hit tied for empire of -- a what is now the Anatolian plains central Turkey. And that the rising powers and -- baloney -- or Syria. Are very much in conversation. With Egypt and with the hit tights and the man no Owens. And the cypriots are also in conversation with them so while Egypt is the prominent one the one we think of is the all powerful empire of the Nile River valley. It is not independent lot of these other civilizations and what short driving too if I summarize this and have you correct me. Is that trade. -- these cut and made these empires rich and trade was a way of the people measuring. The good or bad governance have I said it correctly professor. Yes usually doesn't nicely in a nutshell there yes trade is driving there. World and I would safer for their purposes they had is globalized the world for their time has. We do for all hours they were very cosmopolitan. They were very interconnected. We couple letters sent back and forth there was. Cache of letters found in Egypt that these from exactly this period of known as the market letters. And there are serious so -- letters written to and from well what would be an art terminal to the group of -- But you've got the egyptians on the it's you have nasseria and so the level. You have the cypriots you have been listening in and so on them and no -- and you have the candidates. And in the newsletters and most of them are represented since you have. All kinds of things on the evidence especially you have -- -- -- the world hasn't changed quite so much with. The Egyptian king is receiving letters saying polls reflect dust in your land just sent me a little bit trouble send you my daughter. In the Egyptian king -- back what kind of a manner you who would give your daughter for a few nuggets of gold. I think that's like loud you can just kind of imagine that conversation taking place. So it comes to life. These conversations. We have them you talk about finding them in Kim Holmes what is that it is written and how were they preserved. Well what you have this or written not a small clay tablets. And not very big. They you know would usually have been fired issues saying that killed. Before being transported because certainly nobody could erase the message of minister read on playing you don't fire that you can just take a damp cloth for the release -- the but if you fire -- it's and -- preserved. And its potential vote and brought transport over the battle is. And what we've -- -- there is -- he. Well writing system should therefore a wedge shaped. And a language Acadia and -- it was mostly used in Mesopotamia. But it was the link on the front of the day much is something like French was sent Benjamin Franklin's -- A kid it was the diplomatic language. So if you rejection. -- described you can read and read Egyptian of course but you can also read and write Acadia. Same thing happened in this -- it lands in Turkey if your asset types strut. You can read and write his plate that you can also read and -- Acadia and so as a common link which and that's what these -- that -- market in Egypt are real. We've got letters that we received. But -- about a third of -- tomorrow. But we also helped carbon copies of letters that they sent out so we -- both ends of the correspondents. About thirteen fifty DC. The book is 1177. BC. The years civilization collapse Eric Klein is the author well we come back the mystery deepens as to -- Drove these cities doing so well with their their trade. What drove them all at once to disappear. I'm John bashed for this is the John -- said. I'm John that's what this is John that's a -- Aaron Klein's new book is 1177. BC. He years civilization collapsed this is the late Ron -- bronze age which I learned from professor Klein. Archaeology shorthand is the LBJ late bronze age what follows is the iron range so this is a period where the ability to manufacture. Especially bronze swords. A bronze arrow tips was the top of armory arming yourself as an empire was also an expression of trade. Professor I wanna focus not just on the egyptians but also they hit tight because my reading your book is that that's a powerful but. Little understood transformation what happened to the -- they had a capital city -- tossup. They're governance what's it like the Egyptian -- to they have a king and an elite around the palace. Yes absolute. And so is Stewart basically what we would -- say is the central plateau of Turkey. They do they have the king and they -- in the -- The and all the trappings that you might imagine. As befits a royal empire. The capital city is -- results. Modern therefore escalate the German for the next admitting it were more than. In the century now and so among other things that sound. But -- also is on the temples but also the archives. Again written on clay tablets also stone and as well and so were able to reconstruct some much of their life that society. And their -- I -- plunge into the hit tight world because here is one of these sidebars that becomes central to the mystery. They hit tight world would have had a its edge. Trolling or what we understand to be homers troll like how -- correct me if I get this wrong and over the last 150 years. It has been an obsession by. Very famous people -- Lehman is one of them. Two on earth. The funnyman the history. Of the Trojan war the idea that Paris and Helen. And that MM non and all of -- but there's the battle that we know leading to the crisis and the collapse of Troy. Is Troy right now understood to be an historical. Place in the -- kingdom. Or is this a developing story -- go into the details but I first -- understand this is there one city that we can point to win the and the many that are built on top of each other to say that's homers troll. This is familiar. -- request so we. This is certainly just we have decided that that most -- -- -- agree was the -- of ancient Troy -- amount called. His -- which is on the western coast of Turkey's sell books -- out of this temple. But the problem is that in that mound as him. So many ancient -- is not just one city. But there are in fact nine cities -- -- on top of another. So the question is even if -- it really is -- of ancient Troy. Then which of those nine cities is crimes Troy which is which is the city. Demand non attacks. For ten years according to legend. And that's where it gets interesting because when actually. Excavating Asian mentions. -- thought it was the second city from the bottom Troy too as we call it. Well and that's where -- found the so called price and structure which. By the way is probably neither -- -- treasure but never mind. And it's it's irrelevant -- Story anyway because it's a thousand years too early it's from the early rounds. It's not only concerts. And -- and realizes towards the end of those what -- but he died before he could go back and keep excavated. So little left of the successors. Door so hold on them play again. And most recently Portland and his successors. And itself focusing on either six or -- city. Choice extra choice settles we call them. Which date to approximately the right time period over. Actual Greek legends never say it would in the George what took place -- Later Greeks were divided as to win and he -- what was -- eleven or twelve different days split. It looks like it's somewhere around 1252 little sister newbies is so right of the late provinces which would work well. -- sex desperately it's a beautiful city it will -- -- large houses. But it's destroyed not let them but by an earthquake. Which of course is a problem. -- so. Is simply atrocious rebuilt and it does look like this city under siege but it could also be just so. City you know recovering from an earthquake. But when that comes to -- by 1180 or so. He it is destroyed by elements. And so it actually -- -- The problem is it wasn't a grand and glorious city at that time. So you have a choice did you take the grand and glorious city put six which was destroyed by an earthquake. Or them or ramshackle city of Detroit seven which is destroyed by humans. Or -- the best of both of them. And say that -- -- the two cities into one. As it is it -- prerogative to create a grand epic. What I take from reading your book on the amateur reader is that. Homer's work was very nice for -- world of city states but it does not describe. The late bronze age where city states not standalone and the intertwining of forces. Also has to explain that if -- if Troy was destroyed by invaders from not the mice from the -- pennies from the my -- -- What destroyed their world at the same time. This means this means what we have here is a villain who must and -- this and the villain is inadequate I understand but it's all for your book. Those -- peoples the seat people's didn't they didn't come from Greece and an income from Turkey they came simultaneously. To destroy Troy. And the city's -- what with that kind of says it knows is was destroyed about this -- as well yes all in this -- is the same period. Everything goes this period recognize managed -- no -- everybody. Presidential debate question is who exactly or receive people's. That I would. I would suggest that they were all and not. Both of these people that you know there is no city or place that we can point to and say this was definitely would receive people's control. We've in fact only know also from the Egyptian writings were they big name on nine different groups both. The best guess is that probably come from the western Mediterranean Sicily Sardinia. And and and Italy itself. We have names slick short and -- collapse which may be sort of India and and -- But I want I would suggest that as these people swept across the -- and then into the eastern Mediterranean. And washed the -- -- Egypt. That the conceded people's some of them join them. As a sort of want to do so by the time we get to this. Ragtag band that winds up in Egypt you're not only half of the originals see people's. But you've got some of the -- and so some place in the terms and so it's so. -- free polluters who are ready to join him. And so I think they are. Both victims and bill press rooms and one of the same. Let's go to let's go to the naval battle that you have a -- a picture of in your book of the -- peoples in Egypt because this begins detail detail. That we've shorthanded. And we're gonna get to the exodus story as well the book is 1177. BC delay the year civilization collapsed Eric Klein is the author I'm John bachelor. I'm John that's so this is the John -- show professor Eric Klein in his new book is 1177. BC. The years civilization collapsed and I checked off Troy early on because it's a very nice stage set it doesn't work. Because Troy can be reproduced. All across this vast landscape cities that are doing very well until the early part of the twelfth century BCE. That BC that's between 12100 BC and about 1150 or 1130 BC collapse and they don't rebuild them. In fact ends and Troy seven -- I believe professor. There's a sixteen year old girl's body found her feet -- burned. And there's reason to believe that. There were arrow heads in there so something hit Troy seven at the same time we seek collapsed and no rebuilding over in. On the Greek peninsula but so let's go to the battles seemed to reproduce here. The naval people in the naval battle was seen people's and it meant that that's -- do what am -- looking at what is his talents. Well what you put together as one of the only records we have left to us. -- -- it is eighties huge drawing. Accompanied by ever Olympics that -- for the third put up. On his mortuary temple what we you know -- -- that how -- it's down near the Valley of the Kings -- by Luxor Egypt. And this is Google one of two basic records we've got. Well these seat people's they didn't come earlier there was an earlier wave about thirty years of previously in the time of inept but what we're looking. Admit that I published the second wave. And and the final they never come back again there's no further waves. And -- tell us that they they came to Atlanta and they came by NC. Double what Paul Revere. And what you're looking out of the picture is that naval battle we're not courtroom where took place is probably somewhere. And then -- delta would be our best guess. But it's such a detailed portrait at all that you can -- That the different types of ships. You concede the different outfits with -- people are aware you can tell one from another. And you've chosen to just received some of them are -- -- down some of them are sideways which means that have been killed. And you can really hit an ideal. Was like to be. In the battle ramseys have displaced saying that he ensnared -- -- -- somebody -- and he was able to deceitful. So they -- people lose ultimately the ramseys. Both -- land embassy. And he'd been resettled well. He says and stronghold for. Probably most aren't Egypt what some may be up and down the coast of tandem. Because one of the groups in the see people like most of them we cannot identify we. Don't really know about the question shall the Eric Wedge but one group was called upon lesser. The -- -- most likely the source the source since we don't play well in -- and and so it doesn't. Look like that perhaps or so Palestinians. The Bible -- comes from critics. That these may be remnants of the -- peoples and in particular. They looked an awful lot like people think used to live in graced the plane slams. But now making things using local play in the kingdom. So we may actually have the remnants of -- peoples present. Archaeologically. After they lose. But the naval scene and the hieroglyphics text accompanying it are some of the few written evidence we have out of what transpired. -- the third is the very end of this cycle he is assassinated -- end and 1155. At BC he -- from 1184 to 1155 the seventh year of his -- is what the professor identifies 1177. And as the -- teens who do come from Greece or come from the islands are settled. At the edge of Ramsey's reach in -- Don national lawn and Gaza my saying -- correctly professor than he just parks them there. On tops of his old. Of his old fortresses his old garrisons. Well is almost as if he's taking you -- making use of them as these newcomers. Well that's one way to interpret -- you could also -- moments haven't since the other way. At that perhaps been settled in those cities -- they've come down the coast of some of their ways to Egypt it's not clear in which order it took. Place. But but it does take place that's for sure because socialist and then continue on. And indeed you mentioned a couple of pictures you're quite right so we'll see. And many of the instructions are -- about 1177. But. Some maybe as late as 1130. And so one thing I would point out is that the date of political 77 is kind of symbolic. It's much as we say. Today that the full Roman empire complacent forced 768. When we know quite well but it didn't Rome took a century before all that invaded again and again. But force 76ers shorthand for the fall of Rome and that's what eleventh 77 as a shorthand Propofol. Well civilization at the end of the late bronze -- process actually takes about a hundred years. This is symptomatic. We're gonna talk about the stresses that what have you could've contributed to this all at once. However I wanna go to one city I did not know existed before the professor introduced into me -- it. It's to the north. It's very close to Turkey it's probably on the Syrian. Border right now Syria and a Turkey border. And it was a dominant trading city. It was crossroads from. The west to the east and vice Versa. However it collapsed all of a sudden almost as if and was abandoned and I think they found treasure buried there. People didn't come back for their gold what explains that abandonment. Or is it the other way around the abandon that the collapse of that city broke this the trade do we understand the depth and do -- and which way watts. Throwing a no win both -- is -- definitely was. It's flourishing. Intranet -- national heart recipient Contra -- if you will. It is a crossroads of trade we find everything content from Afghanistan to change tonight storage jars to. Egyptian objects and place in the end pottery. It's all there. Including. A number of different archives found in the houses. Well merchants there are a man named -- -- who -- not named were Tom knew. And these indicate the text and the important objects indicate that. Everything seems so we're going very very well until one they have weapons that suddenly found. And the excavated as the French have been there for about the last 100 years. And they have found evidence that the city was destroyed by invaders that are. Arab heads in the walls -- -- amounts of ash and obvious fire debris and and as you mentioned there are words that are buried which nobody ever came back for a -- executions to been abandoned for quite some time right afterwards. So it doesn't look like somebody came and destroyed it and indeed world war. Text to rather well. Context. That we are able to talk back in graduate school it says. My father the enemy ships of top now is anymore are going to come please let me. I know. This was always. Occupants found that -- that was about to be sentenced. From the king who who go to the king of Cyprus is not that far short Cyprus. But the originally excavated -- is have been. Caught in the kennel where it was being. Debate before being sentenced and that the invaders that come back. Before it to be sort of smell. Newer interpretations have shown that that particular tablet is not in the killed it was actually -- Well basket of self published second floor landed upside down pensive look like kill. And there's about seven the open tablets in there as well. So. You may well. It may be a carbon copies of something that was -- so we have some. In summation of what was going on that there are other tablets that are true. Asking for help saying that people in another nearby city are starving to death. -- -- saying when you're messenger got here it was too late the end of he's an already -- the fuel food the collapse as a cult. Really it comes to mind novelties from the archeology of the city you can Garnett but also through -- checks that were preserved. In this very destruction. The accidents now the other mystery inside all the other mysteries. If I read you correctly. The exodus has the possibility that he is realise that the nations and the -- teens all emerged from the C people disruption. Between the thirteenth and twelfth century BC. And that they replaced whatever it with the dominant culture of the -- -- not in some violent invasion but gradually. But they're all that they're all eternity since the archaeological record. Give us a hint which way to go was a gradual was an invasion was that the -- unites fled all of the above. -- -- Well a million dollar question there this is. Currently -- has been for decades. That console sold quite a bit of discussion. That first and foremost the actual date of the exodus is not at all clear. If you followed. -- -- technology that should have taken place back in about fourteen and fifty DC. Budget which is the rate of some most of us from third. The problem is there's -- no way proposals from third would've let the of this happened during his -- And today. Other indications in the Bible it building of of some of the -- that -- -- Indicate that was probably in the time programs is the second. Which is to have legislators about 1250 BC that does fit into overtime period of the beginning of the collapsed. So one thing that that is clear I would say is that when the great empires go down when everything collapses the Egyptian. Stranglehold on -- is released and that they -- essentially no longer able to tone down. This creates power vacuum in the region that is known as came in the proposition which will become Israel and chewed up. And force the other. In the iron age and so what. Hypothesize. I was fellas that there may have been a power vacuum there. Into which people like the Israel lights are able to move and are able to flourish in the this time we're. There it was unthinkable. Even just a couple decades before I don't think that Israel it's really sort of succeeded as the candidate has still been there. Well. Whether they're coming in almost on the coattails of the seat people's -- It may probably know will be the sick people would actually destroyed heart soar and as some of the Oakland cities from that -- Israel would have simply come out of say thank you very much we'll take it from here that we you know we we can't be sure exactly the order. That these happen it in the Bible itself is so conflict -- simply cut. The book of judges telling a very different stories from the book of Joshua. One describes. A blitzkrieg war almost the genocide and the other describes a gradual infiltration where the candidates in Israel would live side by side. And so far we haven't been able to determine what exactly the answer is through archaeology. When we come back will. Will interviewed the suspects for the destruction of civilization and 1177. BC the years civilization collapsed Eric Klein is the author on John bachelor. John back. -- -- -- -- -- The mystery writer 1177. BCB years civilization collapsed late bronze age going from. What looks to be the World Trade Organization stability. Egypt it giant's demise Indians Cyprus and creeks and the mainland Greece all the reaching across to. Babylon. And there are pretenders running babble on at this time in the and the rising this Syrian empire and in between all the sub kings. All exchanging -- The letters. Daughters. Gold and trade going very prosperous sleep did the merchants replace the kings did there were the kings employ the merchants all very good questions but -- it was all golf. In 1177. What follows a five file of the professor's argument is much smaller. Kingdoms and city State's rising are in the early iron age so what causes it all right suspect number one. Earthquakes professing -- right there's plenty of evidence of earthquakes in all of the cities that are being excavated is that enough. It is not a there are lots of did. That indicate there are a series of earthquakes of this time that's what we would -- And earthquakes storm where you have multiple earthquakes over about a fifteen year period. We're one or another fault on the along until all the stress goes away and we have bodies and collapsed walls of sites stretching from. Might seem in mainland Greece all the way over to -- RS in the north Syria and everything in between him. And yet. People have survived earthquakes it's not enough you'd need more than just an -- All right suspect number two climate change for its very popular these days and certainly the climate in the Middle East is is fragile to say the least was not enough for this period. Again but it is not enough dirtier evidence. There have been forced separate studies done in the last two years alone. -- has finally shown something that we fought for decades. That they're using -- period of famine and drought. From about 1225. To 1175. -- let the insisted VC. These are it's taken from evidence so of ancient pollen from our poorest would have been taken there. Evidence of declining. Temperatures of the -- will receive. And various other indications as -- also there is definitely a period of famine and drought and in fact. The written text corroborate this state to talk about Sam -- and and the life. But again. Humans have survived climate change whether it's you know mother made sure or whatever. -- in time and time again think of 1930s and detestable. So again I would say yes there is evidence there was. Drought famine climate change if you wanna call it that but it was not he. DC peoples' we've mentioned them and I wanna conjoined them with internal rebellion eat does that explain all of the -- going at once come a combination of VC people's triggering bad governance doubts and rebellion in within that and the palaces. Well it yet yes. And no and it may be enough of them may not be enough but here is where I think we need to start inter linking everything. And number of people have Serb -- possibly. You have climate change you've got the fan and you've got -- -- well that's what started to see people's moving. And they've been conquered. The city's Penn State cut to trade routes and that lit led to the demise of these civilizations. That. What that's sounds good I think it's too simple solution. So I think that's where we can start trying things together missing people certainly seemed to come true that's what the Egyptian records tell us. But there are cities that are. Very far from their roots. And yet they're attacked also it's hard to imagine. For example that -- is soft way up in central Anatolia. Was destroyed by the seat people's. So there it may be a usual enemies is a direct group public hostility seems to like destroying content source. But there could also be internal rebellion. And that has been suggested for my ceiling increase. As well for -- -- and I was in came in what is now modern day in Israel so I think you do have to factor in. Internal rebellions you have to factory external invaders. And yet once again. Humans have survived both time and time again. So on their own I don't think that sums up I think you have to start saying. It's a perfect storm it's everything that 12 or three -- couple. Completely complexity science is called I'm attracted to ten -- university of renting. The term -- car co parents hyper -- coherent I like that a lot because that describes. How they were dependent upon that -- from Afghanistan to make copper. And once it was go on her once the values are. Once the trade routes were. Go on no one could function alone. That's hot that's the part that I'm attracted to because it it's very similar to what we can observe today and how -- hyper co parents works professor. Yes I would agree and if I were -- in any related this between the two that would be that you can be very similar. In other ways and yes at different levels of technology. And I would argue that they hasn't mentioned before we're just as globalized that had just as complex of world system. As we have today we have we know from their records for example. Felt that that they had. Amazing marriage of celebrity marriages if you will the -- bitter divorce so they had. Diplomatic -- and economic embargoes they had -- very similar things to what we. Today I personally think it's one of the most fascinating period in history. Completely all kinds of stories. And so that's part of what I tried to -- in the book of the beginning of the end of the book or about. How it collapsed maybe why it collapsed but the whole little part of the book is about what collapsed and wanted to bring it to life well that was way back then. And so I would agree that this type a coherent and complexity theory maybe. One of the only ways that we can describe this in part because it's it says -- a complex system starts to break down it only takes. One little thing to throw the whole thing off to serve. But it also if you link it -- Systems collapse. Related theory. -- -- to win the NBA monsters -- -- when the big -- and an objection umpires -- They're replaced with much smaller cities states. After intervening dark image and hit those little later cities states you have. Ethics and left little Rust Belt the previous golden age of that's exactly what we've gotten over -- policy. The book what is. The book is 1177. BC the years civilization collapsed Eric Klein is the author for one of the name I'm John back this is the John that --

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