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NewsRadio 1330 KNSS>Audio & Video on Demand>>Wed 8/13/14 Hr 1 JBS Gordon Chang, Forbes.com. Peter Navarro, UC Irvine & film producer. Kelley Currie, Project 2049 Institute. Sid Perkins, Science Magazine. Michael Auslin, AEI.

Wed 8/13/14 Hr 1 JBS Gordon Chang, Forbes.com. Peter Navarro, UC Irvine & film producer. Kelley Currie, Project 2049 Institute. Sid Perkins, Science Magazine. Michael Auslin, AEI.

Aug 13, 2014|

Gordon Chang, Forbes.com.  Peter Navarro, UC Irvine & film producer. Kelley Currie, Project 2049 Institute.  Sid Perkins, Science Magazine. Michael Auslin, AEI.

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

Good evening I'm John -- this is the John that's a shot. News across. The planet. The news from West Africa is dire. And I report from Liberia the capital Monrovia and from Sierra Leone capital Freetown. Later on this evening in the convoy. Leaving Moscow is still rolling towards Ukraine's border. Ukrainian authorities are saying it will not pass it is not welcomed this humanitarian relief column. -- a -- is in Crimea to make speeches along with as far as I can tell all the leadership of the Dumont all the members of the Russian congress have traveled -- Crimea as well. In Iraq the American decision right now as we understand it is advisors Marines. And landed in the part of Iraq where the ethnic minority is pressed by -- is offensive against everyone in all directions the savage offensive. That means the metaphor the homeland metaphor boots on the ground. Is the fact the president and his advisors are making qualified remarks as they did when they started the airstrikes last week. We now go to China. Because there is reason to doubt that all is well in the upper reaches. Of the Chinese Communist Party and for some months down Gordon Chang my colleague and cohost who joins me now he's traveling he's in North America based traveling. And I have been puzzling about these strange trails signs as if we're tracking a very large and comfortable beast that suddenly acting on it. The beast is veering this way and that way on the trail and sometimes leaving a bloody footprint. -- a very good evening to. I mentioned that I do not have a solution for the conduct of the Chinese Communist Party these last months do you Gordon good evening to. Good -- job. No I don't and the problem is that everyone thinks that we can just sort of sit down and talk with China and work things doubt although we may have disagreements things are going to be okay. I think that things are so bad in Beijing right now that China is not able to maintain good relations with us with its neighbors with the rest of the international community. We welcome Peter Navarro professor Peter Navarro at the university of Irvine who is most importantly the producer of the documentary death by China. Peter a very good evening to you. We can mention the military aggression by the Chinese Gordon. As a piece up at Forbes dot com mentioning the aggression towards foreign companies in particular Glaxo. It kind of a kind of hop style campaign that is consistent with the anti corruption campaign that's being used on. Chinese Communist Party leadership including the military. It in your opinion measuring this from. Looking at China for over a long period of time. If she didn't -- and driving this is this a one man crusade knees and he's flagging -- in his efforts. What let's start with the one interstate yeah like he's definitely. There's a move Bryce G. To do something now the question what are your intention to keep given the benefit of the doubt. China's most corrupt country. In the world in order to move to the next level it must therefore become less corrupt. This is mr. she's mr. clean and that thing. I don't think that's what's going on I think what's going on is that this. Movement and stem corruption within China is a way of him getting rid of his rival number one. And number two -- and. She. And his management attack toward corporations. It -- and corporate bad behavior but rather simply give. To enhance the competitive position of domestic companies that compete against them so that's what that's what my concern here is. And she witnessed strong man would not be good for any about because. As China has grown militarily very powerfully with in the last several decades. At least it has had somebody at the Helm who was was overtly nationalistic get militaristic. You know this is like putting George Bush. In charge of China instead of a Bill Clinton. Right -- you get a very different kind of China. When you have a guy like in hand so I don't think are so much from this guy can survive. He's taking out some very powerful people. And it's got to catch up. And that to the point that Gordon has new piece up at national interest and I quote from a speech that Gordon. Analyzes -- national interest this is June 26 of this year within these last week she didn't big the big boss of the Chinese Communist Party leaving a billion people into the shining future said. In my struggle against corruption I don't care about life or death are ruining my reputation Gordon as this man. -- Easy self pity as he lost his mind. Well I think he certainly is self -- what he -- he talks about this stalemate between the forces of corruption and the forces of anti corruption. And yet -- just run into a road block as Peter talks about because he has taken on some very powerful people. Now his words about dying in this struggle. May be a little bit melodramatic but they do indicate and instability at the top of the Communist -- got to remember everybody has said everybody but us. Everybody has said that China is stable and its -- -- it quickly consolidated control. These words that have been reported that he can -- which have been confirmed by a number of sources indicate. Things are not staple matter of fact they're very unstable at the top. Yeah. That's sort of question here is my Brothers pictures he's got to really think he -- Survey data from China that the whether that the people themselves they're buying. She's interruption campaign like the Russians are buying and prudent invasion green. From what anecdotal evidence we have people like this campaign because you know if you point out that this is a political purge. But nonetheless they like to see the greedy and the Eagles being taken down and this is the problem procedure thing. Because he can't stop this campaign even if you want to because now the public has become a stakeholder in China and it can't be ignored. That means he's got to fight this to the end which means it can get pretty savage at the top of the Communist Party. Then what's the exit Peter what's the exit strategy here if he's says self sacrificing himself for the party the end of this. And I I mentioned to everyone melodrama I like it hamlets melodrama it didn't work out well that suggests it's not gonna work out well far our new president. Well located there's no exit strategy if the economy falters in the economy most likely would falter if the real estate bubble ever collapses in China. If he can maintain separate percent growth -- and by the way he's been able would be dead by going back to basically stick it to the United States. And run an up or trade deficit again if you can do that. -- maybe we get away with all -- -- but if if things start to slow down. He has no exit strategy and ends and I think it's like well I'm I'm I'm in danger now that that's kind of weird that's deductible weird. That's paranoia that captain -- to me. -- Peter you know when we look at all this how do you see this playing out you know you talk about. How are they trying to engage in these beggar they neighbor policies because the United States. They got a slowing economy pick up now political instability to tout how do you see all of this playing -- Well until it. Gordon knows very -- I get a trip back -- this spring to sheets in the interview with Mike -- one one of the things I learned. That I thought was fascinating was the idea that China now has the same -- of special interest actions. That are plaguing the United States to -- well -- tend to think that China as an autocratic awful period model list with one policy. But the problem that's emerging now you got all these competing interest you've got military interest. Across the PL played navy air force. Army whatever trying to get a bunch of weapons system so that. Ask what -- you've got nationalist. Who wanted to really get on -- campus and cock while islands in the Philippines for scurbel -- And that's a tiger that's really hard. To back away from and then you've got economic interest all up and down the coast to China who wanna push application boats in the South China Sea. Who wanna push throughout the oil rig -- -- -- -- that the so it's kind of like its -- like this tiger. -- that's being unleashed with special interest in the absence of -- democracy it's kind of kind of weird. But it's also theories. Very dangerous because it's not a democracy so. Gordon John that's how I see it playing out. Peter Navarro professor Peter -- -- university of Irvine the producer. Death by China Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com I'm John bachelor. Okay. I'm John that's -- Gordon Chang my colleague and friend didn't tell us this year he's traveling. Forbes dot com and we're very pleased traveled to Burma thanks to the eyes of Kelly -- Senior fellow with the project when he 49 institute now that I have given away where we are what does it sound like Gordon. Kelly this is a contest you get to play. July 2014 -- journalists sentenced to ten years of hard labor may 2014 a draft law in Burma. That outlaws interfaith marriage okay. Kelly what happened to liberation mrs. Clinton and President Obama dancing in the streets in Burma -- don't remember that two years ago -- mean you Cali. Good evening well you know I've been saying not a good pitcher you know and count your chickens -- here with our it's pretty Dicey hadn't. Obama administration. Continues to declare victory that. The situation on the ground is not quite as victorious these days. It must translate better than I am believing Gordon what's happened here did the Chinese get back in what is this. Banning interfaith marriage court and that's that's it that's a trick out of China. Yeah clearly and you know we've seen so much back flooding in in recent months which is an indication that the administration's policy. Really hasn't been nuanced enough what they have really done is as Kelly said declared victory. And -- believe that the general is seeing that and what they have been able to do and then it can go back to the old way of doing things. I have a photograph in front of me of John Kerry secretary of state in one of those funny shirts Kelly says there's probably a Burmese word for it but in any event it's heavily gold -- down the front. Long sleeves and he's bending over because he's a very tall man to talk to the foreign minister. Burma is there any indication that the secretary of state understands that -- slipping back into dictator ship -- Well I think it after this strip he probably can't help but he got a letter from a bunch of members of congress that these street members mostly Democrats including the homes. Massachusetts delegation. Expressing concern about back fighting before you plant. That Kirk rubio letter to senators Kirk rubio also. And then lots of questions from journalists probably the bears in and -- he left. About the problems. I think that hopefully I haven't got period despite the the bubble in -- where he lives in Burma. Gordon. Kelly I understand that everything about this trip to -- dole is controversial including where our great secretary of state. Managed to -- did you talk a little bit about the hotel arrangements. Yes but apparently he's stayed at a hotel it's owned by an individual who is on the sanctions lists that treasuries black list for people that United States. United States citizens are not that the deep businessman and the State Department is claiming that I would towel is not sanction but that's. Clearly not actually true. And then they said well although -- -- -- -- -- the hotels are owned by companies and that is true but there are two hotels in May adopt. That are not owned by sanctioned individuals. And the State Department knows this but that they you know other officials make a point not to state it. -- -- -- -- -- and individuals that they're just flailing the practice having a field day with this it's been in the disaster. Mrs. Clinton embraced Burma that was awhile back passion commented on the she's been commenting on a lot of things about the M Obama administration foreign policy she didn't enjoy when she was at stake now that she's liberated. As she commented that she circled back to the fact that. -- not what she hoped. There has not been much indication I haven't seen anything from her eyes this week there was some comment that she and been read the president's deputy. National security advisor who writes I was speeches. That there are in Constant Contact your regular contact about Burma because they don't care about -- semis so. You know I I don't know -- -- said anything publicly and. That means she knows about the ban on interfaith marriages she knows about the four journalists sentenced to ten years of hard labor she's she is she she won't say that that's a surprise to our. I don't know what she knows that those things that are you know out there and they've been going on for awhile now. -- Gordon is there any indication that the Chinese are back in town. Well the Chinese have never really left I mean they have now had some pretty tough. Relationship issues with the Burmese government over a game and over highway. And I think that's an indication that China is going to have a much rougher ride -- -- dog than it has up to now. But nonetheless you know the Chinese are still got big investments in the country is still have great relations. With the government there. So I think that this is going to be an ongoing story essentially the government. So -- being embarrassed by its ties with Beijing because that's pretty unpopular with a lot of Burmese these days. We put a lot of money according to the Washington Post we put a quarter of a billion dollars and to Burma. The Chinese support fourteen million again I'm following the Washington Post reporting. Is -- transparency about that money I remember Kelly one night you're saying all the all all the free enterprise outfits are showing up and ran grew in the hotels the restaurants tourist. What about our money who's tracking it. Well this State Department is supposed to be and companies just has to be reporting about their investment. Every six months there's witnesses have reporting requirements that there are a lot of investors. Haven't really fulfill the reporting requirements very effectively. And they basically have civil society and are -- and here in the US kind of monitoring this. What it looks like is this was a campaign platform. That's and to be it you know there's no such thing as too cynical when you're dealing with Washington -- Looks like it wasn't about Burma at all it was about flying there together and having a campaign event. Well what I've heard recently is that the administration's top priority right now is commercial relations environment and you know. Making. The ways may have freed up corporations said that there and that they receive that next. The upcoming elections in November 2015 and just you know that you have to get to read it's and they have to be good enough. That everybody Clinton can continue to invest and profits from development -- Kelly the president is going back to Burma at least one time before the end of his term. It -- too much to hope that he can actually hit it to borrow word. And actually get serious about human rights or is that just really too much to to hope for. Well I hear from my civil society contact on the ground environment is this question of why he's coming back -- -- dividend after the government to their regime. My my friends there are very frustrated with US policy right now very concerned that we ought to read on human rights. And on supporting democracy. Especially now that we don't seem to care whether -- fancy she's able to run for president are not in terms of whether we think the elections will be fair. So I think that there's a real concern on the ground about about whether President Obama should even come back. And you know they're starting to see and -- I'm thirty meters from people in Washington starting to wonder the same about whether he should go back at all. If it doesn't send the wrong message for him to go back. Garden again fourteen billion dollars by the Chinese according to the Washington Post. A buys a lot of favors court. Well it certainly does and you know the commitment to putting even more money or are going to just aggravates that problem. Because the projects they're working on are very large and require additional money. And also once they're finished would require additional contact between Beijing in the Burmese. So this is something we've really really have to watch. Kelley Currie senior fellow of the project Tony 49 institute Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com I'm John bachelor. News. And John -- this is the John bachelor show life on planet. In our solar system especially in the habitable zone that would be heard and at the edge of the habitable zone that will be Mars our aspirations to live on Mars or. Some parents -- martian. At some point. In this century. Aided considerably by a presumption that might be possible that the temperatures would be accommodate them. Said Perkins who writes for science magazine I'm looking in the science news report -- filed on new work about the surface. Temperature of Mars. A because of the wind chill factor -- a very good evening to you I'd always been told that it's going to be impossible live on the surface of Mars because it's too cold. But there is information that we're looking at Minneapolis does that include. Ice palaces in the wintertime good evening to you. That didn't just how all the. -- That particular scientific report doesn't. Really get around the fact that it's really cold -- -- hours but it does talk about. How old if it's not particularly harsh in one aspect in that there's very little windshield. It's sort of believe that there's there's not much wind chill Morrissey even in the tropics nighttime temperature dips down to me like thirty degrees Fahrenheit below. And that's -- -- and Arctic like temperatures in the -- of wind against yourself well how could there not be windshield was proposed windshield was based on human perception. And particularly. The perception if he blows above and beyond what's normal for a body exposed to the same environment with no -- and extra heat lost typically countries that we carrying away the thin layer -- -- excuse skin that your body -- -- More game in Russia is more cold here in your body loses heat warming data here in the and that gets swept away and. They're continuing on Nolan is that in part is -- addressing multiple layers helped keep -- warm in the winter you're not constantly warming is that it's. That's. This. Swept away and and consequently feel one. On Mars there's something going on that most people don't consider -- personal opinion there is incredibly again. That the planet's surface atmospheric pressures on the hit list of 1% that of the -- -- sea level and about the same as diverse atmosphere to -- times higher than jet planes crimes and here is that thing and just. Simply didn't do a good job -- clearing away even at speeds companies. More global dust storms. And and researcher for the studies a Canadian scientist who collaborated with an American. To revise the formula is where the man used to estimate windshield -- you know we've talked about he he. Came up with a way to convert martian conditions. Two are equivalents. Him particularly that is the temperature on earth in the sheet that provides the -- he lost his own Morrison and the results -- rather surprising. And -- -- sometime afternoon temperature remorse where your finances -- -- -- pathfinder landed in 1997. Is about certain degrees Fahrenheit. Temperature wind speed -- nine miles an hour that's real data from the -- To convert that to earth with what that's about 34 -- fair and kind. Which is about two degrees warmer than the windchill in southern New England known him for 200 day. -- -- Wars global average temperature of three degrees slow with new windows only two degrees colder than the average windshield in Minneapolis and winner. We -- you kid you know an average temperatures seventeen decreased premiere night the wind speed of ten miles an hour. -- all of this. You know this study is about human perception that he possibly exposed skin and that's not likely to be ever encountered more confidence from not some columns could still need to Wear protection. And and that's not to say that he lost won't be long term problem you've you know he loss eventually -- That the environmental temperature in overtime regardless of how fast you lose it you -- you know in an equilibrium. If people still -- -- and other ways like stole him away the key to their. -- Christian environment and they'll still -- he threw them some problems remain standing. -- machine to collect samples from here on. Once I just don't pick it up a lot from machine will be electric and apple won't dry -- However what you're not describing however conditions that are in uninhabitable you're describing. You'd have to pick your moments to be on the surface. But and you'd have to Wear clothing which you have to Wear clothing in Minneapolis in the wintertime to. -- -- then and again it's it's about heat loss raid. You know when you're looking at windshield what's about heat -- -- and not the eventual. Temperature which you plateau in theory you can you can get from one place to another. Without both of them protected environments without losing much -- on the way that's that's the you know the plus side of having a little windshield. But you wouldn't -- where you wouldn't wanna have. -- And it exposed skin on the surface of Mars despite that it regardless of the temperatures there are other problems. That's more yes that's more back to the idea of media -- -- rather than you know temperature protection. So what we have here is that there will be spots on the surface of Mars and sub martian as well. Where I'm human habitation would be more likely and more credible. Well you know I again back to the idea of you know you do talk about the supreme. Facilities and -- it would be just like caves on earth if you would that you you can bid to cave if you were deep enough would essentially -- Temperature equal to the average temperature that side over the course of the year. Well which on March would be relatively low you would give him but you know century inside an insulating environment you could heated up and it would it would only gradually be lost resident. Rather -- rapidly. I'm speaking with -- Perkins of science magazine writing it in science news from the surface of the planet Mars we go to the surface of the planet earth are friendly third planet from the sun. And a possible new source of information about earthquakes before they happen it's chemistry how -- Well it is actually. Linked back to microscopic changes in the rock. Possibly being able to create these. Magnetic -- is that or even detectable at the surface. And in this is not really earthquake prediction in this Simpson will next Thursday at 3:15 eastern time but in the in the very eruptions of being increasingly likely come in Indonesia weeks. And what they've done that come up with a way that helps explain these -- fluctuations in the magnetic field that have been observed before several moderate side squeaks going back -- -- fifteen years. Top that it typically these largest of these are about you know 100000. And the ministry had been won't work because these things in this new models suggested if you say they're bigger these microscopic changes in the Bronx undersized and extremists and particularly in volcanic rocks had started out with substantial amounts of water reluctance the minerals. There's a lot of oxygen oxygen bonds called proxy bonds. And before long ago after conclude she just broke pour the water and hydrogen bonded together in the -- you lose. You know defeat -- broadly beaming out from behind me if you take rocks with those sorts of -- in the main squeeze them on the strange fusion IQ let's. Intensity quake history this is building. These -- spray can and that releases these negatively charged electrons which actually blocked -- please try -- over the conduct electricity that whale. But they end. It also creates these possibly -- holes you know make the balance just posted and then a boost. A whole can't move around in the crystal. And then goes to move in the way of those have been singled moved to luck and have a hundred meters. Second and then the researchers suggest this is what's going on in the Earth's crust on major deal. Mass migration of these holes is sort like electrical current and forward in terms of what gives you magnetic field. -- the things because in these -- maybe. These candidates apparently discounted lightning because some of the clips lasted as long distant second sound which is longer than Dana. A lightning. Oh. They really they read these blips these pulses with magnet Thomas terrorist. -- say is that practical to distribute magnetometer is for this kind of discernment say in California Los Angeles that's what we all worry about. When and if it happens there. What I'm someplace his abdomen and and the thing is you know like -- -- -- you can make it which could take ground vibration can make them very very sensitive on the other hand have been more -- -- you make them. The more outside influence you can hang out. Back to the idea of -- -- -- things because of these say they kind of get -- the lightning in and they believe -- you know. Pin them down to the source of earthquakes because in Peru where they have to instruments they were able to -- trying to lead in the claim they triangulation -- -- to areas where -- later happened. But you know there was another scientist and told me about a time when he worked in Boston several decades ago kissed. Magnetometer started picking up -- series of -- -- is every morning and an adventure he's very mysterious and eventually convince colleagues tracked these polls has been mounting engineers cranking up the trolley cars new I really hard. So what you can't have this human influence of these instruments. So it's either an earthquake or a trolley car that's what -- yeah. And you know even -- these make political system originating with and are across so don't always fraternal clink I mean there's sometimes when you get the -- and what what -- these researchers saying is it's it's not necessarily the presence of the clips it's more likely to be the pattern of the -- is. Particularly given the changes in their size and frequency. That that might offer crystal ball for these you know impending clay expert only grew up since. I said Perkins riding for science news a science now part of science magazine I'm John bachelor this is the John -- show. And. -- I'm John -- -- Mike allows. The American Enterprise Institute joins my colleague co -- Gordon Chang and myself. Writing most recently in the Wall Street Journal about. A new normal this one in Asia and it includes. Lighthouses. It doesn't sound upsetting but. Given where these lighthouses are and our plan to be it is meant as hop style. Michael a very good evening -- what does a lighthouse represented the People's Liberation Army navy. Good evening -- global houses are going to be built on disputed islands in the South China -- is going to be five of them. And do what they aren't actually -- challenge to the other claimant countries. To say that this is Chinese territory. Once the -- houses are built it it's just a stronger legal -- It is really no way of not only undercutting according to the daring them to try to do something about it because Beijing is calculated that they won't do and it's -- states won't side. -- Michael if it's not just lighthouses. China has announced it's going to be reinforcing some of its military installations. I'm disputed islands as well. And there is an indication that they'll be building airstrips. So it seems to me that when you put all this together it's a clear indication that Beijing is not going to submit itself. To international arbitration and essentially it's not going to have good relations with anybody in the region and not with the United States has. Well yeah I Gordon I think that's right -- you know a couple of years ago China announced that it was reorganizing its military. Structure in the South China -- they were creating one incident unified military region. They were upgrading it to aid in essence -- provincial level of military headquarters. They'd they will see what Beijing and it has said in the in this case is everyone. Gives other nations passed when they build structures or. Or airfields around these sound decisions trying to announces it's going to do something. That everyone -- up against it but of course you saw that you -- take islands away from the Philippines they'd be essentially taken Scarborough shall -- from the Philippines. And the larger question that Beijing continues not to recognize. Is that when either sexist obviously is a very different type of factor than any other nation in the region and so its unwillingness that you put it. To really live with its neighbors and played by the rules and in fact trying to. Keep these states and other nations out from even being arbitrators -- mediators. It is just an indication that it wants to set the rules as its decent. Tokyo is an obvious offset however my sense Michael is that China's picking up the pace is that accurate are they being more aggressive faster with more ideas than Tokyo and Washington. Are ready to do acknowledge. I think that it is the pace is picking up I think in general those certainly wouldn't -- compared for example Ukraine nor were. The piece is still relatively measured in China used. Has been making moves that except to -- a we would not talk about five certainly ten years ago and yet -- still I would I would argue -- injured in effect to me is that part of the problem it's much easier. To wouldn't wake up and oppose some thing when you see it as both Lee and and it has frighteningly -- Ukraine. Here it's it's very much salami slicing and and it is a step by step process by which China. He is building up its infrastructure its building up its legal claims it's building up its influence. And so far it has what it has done is is gotten -- some of the nations in southeast Asia primarily the Philippines and Vietnam. To try to ally of against it with it and go to Japan for example in the United States. But it's also be able to split on beyond and and it has been very effective in that so far and who -- that will continue. But so far avoiding a united front. Michael you know clearly Beijing has brought a lot of friends in the region and certainly is starting to change the conversation about China in Washington. And eventually not now but eventually this will have real consequences. Why are the leaders in Beijing doing that at this time what -- driving them. Well the you know as as we talked about before Gordon I think it is a combination of opportunism I think it's a combination of -- But -- long term plan to rebuild influence and power. And then see where how and where they can push it. For example on disputed island they've not tried that yet to take over war war extend their presence and on disputed islands. It has been a sort of back and forth on exactly what the claims are is that all of -- at the South China Sea is it just the water in the South China -- Is that the land forms if it's -- and ability on their part. I think to read to wait when they see pressure coming against them both are particularly being worried that there at the long term trust and is moving here against there interest so I think I heard there seems to be. Confidence in Beijing regardless -- how isolated they feel. That over the long run they will be able to achieve these aims to give themselves simply the ability to do whatever they want. Michael we have breaking news from Reuters the secretary of state. And apparently in response to your column in the Wall Street Journal and other remarks I wanna read them to you because the present -- the secretary is speaking about China. And how China. Has. Be enacting aggression aggressive and what Washington's gonna do about it secretary said within these last hours in Hawaii. The United States takes no position on questions of sovereignty in the southeast China -- but we do care about how these questions are resolved. We care about behavior we firmly oppose the use of intimidation. Question are forced to assert that territorial maritime claim by anyone. And we firmly oppose any suggestion that freedom of navigation and overflights and other lawful uses of the sea and air space or privileges granted by big states. To small ones is that a review said hey that -- -- that Beijing will understand Michael. Well I just think -- he is stronger words but he is not materially different from what Washington has said before I mean for years now. Washington has talked about opposing any type of change and forced. -- in this China set up the air defense identification zone it it came out with pronouncements against that. I think from the from Beijing's perspective. The words in the rhetoric may get more heated but the actions don't. And therefore did the calculation is that they are able to continue pressing. These these claims and pressing there there -- -- so to speak in terms of moving in ways that give any material advantage compared to where they were before so. It's interesting you know -- twenty years I guess will be able look back in and look at this progression of American statements and then at some point -- -- this is where. Americans did or did not take some action and that that really set the stage for the the future of Asia right now. I think it's just a lot of rhetoric court. Michael -- would you know if you're secretary of state. When would you take action. Well I think it you know that's it's an incredibly difficult question Gordon and I think beat the question of action is is one that had a a wide range one. He is what type of support can we be giving to our friends in the region that we really haven't given up till now. Can we be giving more military training can we be giving more intelligence can we helped them. To understand better what is happening for example when there is likely to be a some of clash with the Chinese ship as as he saw with Vietnam we've we've done very little to support them. In any of these low level actions of the Chinese have taken. It at some point certainly when we get to the question for example the East China Sea which we haven't talked about today in China's incursions into Japanese waters. Is there were roll with the United States can play either in the air war or -- the Japanese have certainly asked for that. They've asked for assurances they've asked for more American -- and and we still haven't done and I think that. At some point you either have to say we're going to be more present in areas that we know are contested and we know there's a likelihood. The some type of -- happening. Or were really going to change the way we make claims about what what our presence in Asia is supposed to be. So I think there's a lot more that we can do that doesn't necessarily mean we put an American ship between a Chinese ship and an excellent. But at the same time we have to really have the debate that we -- not and Washington which is to say. What exactly the interest that we're trying to uphold. And how are we willing to go to make sure that those do not slip away because right now. The Asians are Asians are suppose that there are slipping away we just don't recognize that. Michael -- of the American Enterprise Institute writing in the Wall Street Journal Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com I'm John bachelor.

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