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NewsRadio 1330 KNSS>Audio & Video on Demand>>Wed 8/13/14 Hr 2 - Gordon Chang, Stephen Yates, Nitin Gokhale, Gary Roughead, Jillian Melchoir

Wed 8/13/14 Hr 2 - Gordon Chang, Stephen Yates, Nitin Gokhale, Gary Roughead, Jillian Melchoir

Aug 13, 2014|

Gordon Chang, Stephen Yates, Nitin Gokhale, Gary Roughead, Jillian Melchoir

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

I'm John that's a good evening. John -- Joseph Gordon Chang my colleague and co host Forbes dot com is traveling is on the line with me. And we're very please go to Stephen -- the chairman of the Idaho Republican Party. Before that it was CEO of DC international advisory and he served with the Bush Administration in the vice president's office they're familiar with. Asia and the promise of China but right now we have to deal with the threat of China Stephen a very good evening you. Gordon and I discussing this are taken with a news item from Reuters just put up. This is breaking news the secretary of state John Kerry in Hawaii making a speech about. The Asia Pacific calling attention to the back the United States regards itself as an Asian Pacific nation good for us. However here is the meet a device for of these secretary of State's remarks aimed at Beijing. The United States takes no position on questions of sovereignty in the south and east China -- but we do care about how those questions are resolved. We firmly opposed the use of intimidation. Coercion or force to a certain territorial. Our maritime claim by anyone. And we firmly oppose any suggestion that freedom of navigation over -- and other lawful uses of the sea and air space -- privileges granted by big states. To small ones the Obama administration. Talking being Stephen I want to turn the screw here. I don't wanna talk about what the Obama administration has missed about the Chinese aggression. I once you was chairman of the Republican Party is a man familiar with the Republican Party policy foreign and domestic. To. Aim to the future what does a GOP foreign policy look Klein. That would very make it very clear to Beijing that its aggression will stop. Well John I think it's a very important problem that we face first I think here's Republican foreign policy that began with building trucks to allies and I don't like the formulation not saying that we don't have we don't take a position on the territorial claims. When you out a non ally contesting the sovereignty of an ally. I -- should be clear about our support our allies that Republicans. Should be unified behind that. They threw a Republican foreign policy would need to stand on real capability. To deter dissuade and the challengers in this region but also to reassure allies that -- that is fully funded trained and deployed not one that is. In retreat in some respects declining in budgets but also declining a couple of capabilities. That really -- much more work. What we are capable of doing and what we demonstrate that we have is standing wire allies that matters in speeches. -- Dave. With the secretary -- words how are they going to be received in Beijing. Well I think that there received in Beijing largely in the way many statements by administration art. They hear them they -- little protest this and they don't like that and anyway they know that this too shall past there have been many many speeches given. But the general trend of development on the ground and actually. In the Asia Pacific in at a time of opportunity for Beijing. They're not seeing real push back real risk real prices to be -- -- -- The puzzle I wanna stay with this imagining a Republican future their voices in the Republican Party the junior senator from Kentucky comes to mind. Who I turned to the future and say not our business and what's about a time that was called isolationism. These days it has fancier words but not our business is that a credible position for the Republican Party in Asia Steven. I don't think credible position that has defined. I really believed. That have realistic approach to foreign policy to send national security is that we need to be in the position to help others help themselves. Part of that is that the oceans are so fast. And really -- United States is uniquely capable. Of helping balance. Interest in the Pacific and around the world and we don't have to be into injecting ourselves and can't. But it worked out there making sure that I see that freedom of navigation. We're making sure we're training and equipping allies Accenture shares. And it's a much more stable world and America can be street -- in the best -- Steve you know when you look at the Republican positions that seem to be many various men many of them. And yet win a platform is eventually agreed upon. Normally what happens is that. Of parties normally comes to -- with the mainstream of American foreign policy. Despite what Rand Paul might want it any particular moment is the Republican Party is going to do return to -- mainstream. Foreign policy principles. Well I think grant although it probably contestant proposition that it isn't that mainstream foreign policy. And his foreign policy it's ultimate probably I think fairly current cannot characterize the work in progress. But I -- think that the Republican Party platform nationally tend to come back to where a majority. Other delegates with a conventional power. And I say while I support the idea of having a good strong and clear much well why didn't work in a White House tried years. Where there wasn't a single meeting at which someone did you hand or -- -- what was the platform of the party at the last convention with regard to this issue. And so I think it's important to have broad strokes and where president leadership wants to go where party wants ago. But really when it comes to what we'll do that kind of crisis. It's it's it's really not these speeches from candidates they're gonna term. Early in the Bush Administration there was a provocation by China. And the bush administration and it and I answered it tough -- this is before 9/11 and it was lost. The Chinese I'd take -- have long memories with that worked today Steve and in in this environment. The Chinese. Provoked and the United States act and -- with rough stuff. It could work usually we go through a cycle. Administration the Chinese have a long and consistent approach to update your virtue of the political system that app. By early and presidencies the Chinese are a little bit concerned about. Not knowing where president will go not knowing quite the limits of what he's willing to do in using American power material or other eventual. Side -- quiet time your and a six year of the administration's -- like -- taken good measure and it's a little bit harder to try to negotiate with. And successfully. But in general one time it cost we demonstrate until the push back. It helps us actually achieve peaceful outcomes and later on Gordon. Hey you know the it's Chinese really didn't test the Obama administration during their first months. So of course they did with Bush Administration. It's possible that the Chinese are gonna test the Obama administration in its last -- just glad it's going out. Thinking they can maybe get away with something that it otherwise couldn't. Well every administration is concerned about that and -- -- to be a logical possibility -- My -- assessment is that the Chinese. Don't feel like they've needed to test this president they feel like this article that you admire the most of the time if they're Smart at least in something and they're going their way. Keep pushing ahead but don't push -- had to ruin a good thing. I wanna go to this idea of the Chinese are responding tonight by saying secretary -- call for freeze at their rejecting the call for freeze. Covert actions Stephen. Once upon a time that was part of the American toolkit. With that work these days in China. They seem very brittle in Beijing right now with all of these pledges of loyalty to she's been paying by the military that's not a sign of strain. How about Covert actions ancient job her Covert action in the south China city. Well don't we start talking about correction has no longer Cooper certain way but I I've been a big believer that we be. Need to be using all of our tools employed and particular to that that are the victim of politics. And demagoguery in my in my humble. Estimation. It and we need to have. Much more skilled practitioners well on the insurance ploy to do these guys need to work or closer well. Indian influence in inside China they do a great deal of our country to influence what our leaders deal with our communities and our policy making process. People are sensitive to it but they're not aware of extent that we should be doing everything we can't since lifting import think they're a large damages. Well I want to press the point Steve we've got a lot of friends out in -- they'd welcome working with us wouldn't today. They would indeed and they -- capabilities were leadership would be all the signal they need to know. That we're back in this business there were serious somewhat like would tell what in the Middle East. Or where none of most of the leaders will say. If you're if you're perhaps measures we want nothing to do it this but you're dead serious well right there ready to take which. Gordon we need leadership that's going to declare that it understands China's hostile we don't have one right now we need an election court. We certainly do and I hope that the Republican Party can supply. Some better answers than what we've had. Now it's time for my proverb I've been holding back an army of sheep led by a lion will defeat an army of lions led by as sheep. Stephen Yates and the Idaho Republican Party Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com. Okay. I'm John -- Gordon Chang my colleague and co host and we're off to Delhi. Indiana to wish you good morning -- Nixon -- color. Who is a reporter anchor for New Delhi television. As well as the author and beyond and 9842. This site can. Saga but this morning we wanna go to the new south of India. Under multi and the United States of America looking forward cooperation looking to throw its arms wide open to mr. -- is government. And. Mr. Modi was elected overwhelmingly his party is dominant in the Indian legislature and now it's time to move. Move which way niche in a very good morning to you the headlines and I'm looking -- in the Times of India are extremely positive looking at. A picture of mr. -- sitting next to Chuck Hagel and the word collaboration being used in the opening headlines. Is India ready. To collaborate with the United States is the United States ready to make a fresh start with -- good morning -- Indeed. This is these technical but then that that Washington looking for all of -- you really. That slave -- he cabinet minister's secretary of state. Secretary of defense and secretary of course from the US making of the united that he did and then -- And then not and then actually and that they've been over the last when the crowd an awful. Seven. -- and opportunities in different. Let -- platform. It's and looking act. But in their -- -- outdoors. Decades of that and other Susan officers. That they need to have looked at -- that US was knocked. Support August probably added that has been good for the -- particularly is now on Gordon didn't. How has -- secretary of state and our secretary of defense been welcomed in New Delhi. They've seen it just sort of people coming lately or is it's seen as a sign that there could be real cooperation between Washington and India. That didn't he's the new ways to connect efficiencies. That would define that as the US nautical neither the bears a strong government in India and government should not -- very busy on the blood pressure up. From any bottom of the of the and therefore but everybody wants to sort of the kind of but it would be relationship with Richard had gone down -- in the popped. We of the last administration therefore I think it -- going to be more talking about the -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- before. US. Military and a little public really needs the market in India. Tool but its weapons and that's all and that's one of the reasons play that would mean that the united Europe in the feeling of been. There's a puzzle it's a new puzzle it's turning on Ukraine crisis but it looks like a new Cold War at least from the point of view of Washington. The sanctions on Moscow. Does that complicate the picture for the subcontinent that Moscow and Washington are now antagonists again. That's certainly guess what India because remember a full well blood -- say this on the -- you've been saying that -- development of -- -- but and then border from Russia. Are pressured into playing well on the post was a bit humid but definitely given out in the and then -- -- it that forty about the school. Now say that you would have significant. It's not just opened the black footed back then. Did that he will be over if somewhat school. And yet given the -- relationship with multiple. And Gavin play and it has been -- And it comes to choosing between Washington and -- but that's good to be. Like the balance that they'd have a that the strike in the. And didn't when we look at the US China relations you know the US has spent a lot of time thinking and trying to work with China to build a partnership. Now the United States is trying to build a partnership with New Delhi. How do the Indians see this -- triangle of New Delhi Beijing Washington. But I think that you'll probably security -- didn't that he the thing to -- -- Actually feel good relationship between new billion beating. And -- in Washington -- you can gave divinity because that they'll also held by that that. Editions of the now. White negating the ten on the economic front and on president front. In middle of Oakland simple the constant and click on the board of the stupid board up and therefore it does not want it would be Washington. One of these days dealing with China and therefore -- and that's -- -- to be complicated. But the board so Calvin -- possible that given be confident that the new government hasn't been noted that the new government has. Have you seen it change in the government's ambitions for our -- up for building up the Indian arsenal is there indication they're going to build ships are. But more airplanes or or do or put more combat brigades. In training. But if certainly AM in that the -- -- on from the previous administration but. And some will be -- -- with the did would that leave you want them to -- up without it may prevail of the bigger because in by the Chinese. You get when -- political. Spoke with the troops there and I would if the book of being visible. And I -- thankful for that you would bring up. On the Indian side and -- that -- in the next play particularly given that it may have massive buildup in on the along the border with China. And -- -- -- time and billboards school people are talking to cannot lift. Some incredible conflict that this before it had this thing to pick on planet. What about capital -- -- what about capital ships the Indian Ocean is critical for China. You know if India and actually visiting fort before the new ships one of them is going to be commissioned by the time the sensors and of the commercial -- -- -- on the Saturday on the sixteenth of August. Led the ship and run of the -- -- the strive been. But then that would visited India on in the box and therefore governments have -- full coming in -- and possibly have been me. -- The Chinese want to build -- road connecting China and India. That would seem to have a number of security implications would admit it can be used as a way for the Chinese to actually invaded India. What is New Delhi think about this idea of -- silk road to China. It's reflective -- the ordinary must confess. The but more than a little bit did the previous administration in India and deeply regret for the president's sudden along with sending. But in the US and the citizens there haven't been a victim of auto and I think they can be of any video footage I think this initiative because that -- said. That makes -- -- with a steady through much improved these new identity without remote. The justices lacking basic festivities of the -- I think good in -- Gordon lately that in the quote and of -- part of the of the include the. -- and go -- is an anchor a New Delhi television he's the author of a book. Beyond NJ 9842. This hike in saga Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com. We're looking at relationships that are very fraction of the secretary of defense was just in Delhi with the new prime minister of India. This is a very much a moving story I'm John -- -- this is the John about social. I. I'm John that's just John does show Gordon Chang Forbes dot com my colleague co host continues and we're very pleased to welcome Hoover institution's. I've looked very rough and Gary served as the 27. Civic flee to looking at the future and he has a new piece up a defining ideas for the Hoover institution to remind all of us. That the future in Asia is not just about the Asian giant China it's also about a region that -- Gary calls. Indo Pacific and that perspective is. Fresh. Admiral of very good evening -- thank you for this India's had a new election and there is new leadership in Delhi. There's also the prospect that while we have throughout Asia is a revived economy revived economic ambitions. In our focus on China. Have we misunderstood. The promise of Asia because. Chiefly these days we worry about China's aggression in the south in the South China Sea in the east Tennessee good evening to you out. -- Jon and Gordon could be with you and to your question and I I think. I'm not true that we misunderstood -- and I think that we've let China mask. The broader spread. Of activity and potential and promise that exists and what I refer -- -- in the Pacific region. That the region that really stands the western Pacific. But because of the linkages and significant countries involved really spreads itself and the Indian -- as well I think. That if we only think of Asia and we tailor policies. Toward Asia strictly. On China I think that we missed the big picture. -- Secretary. Kerry was in India at the beginning of this month and just a few hours ago I think secretary of defense hagel just left India. Is there are renewed emphasis on India in Washington or is these -- this is just a coincidence. Now -- I think that there is eight and renewed interest but it it really. Ride -- back of what I believe has long been an interest. On the part of the United States. To develop. A closer and better relationship. With India. Across all sectors and that really began. Adequacy. Is the nuclear. Agreement that we struck with India few years ago. But. You know for the US military and particularly for that -- The relationship that we have had with India as has been a priority. And we have done I would say. As as as navies and we've done more on a military to military bases. And perhaps the other services. Reason being is I often say that in our Indian friends think that the Indian Ocean is perfectly name. And and so they're going to be a major player in that part of the world the relationships and they have. And there's no question that. As China. Expands its maritime activities and and and brings itself more to the Indian Ocean. It's going to setup an interesting. Relationship between. Not just the navies in the voters that really between the two countries because both countries need to see lines of the Indian Ocean. To support their economies and their trade. You're right of Russia as a Pacific power as well as an Arctic nation the United States is an Arctic nation. We do know the immediate future for the conflict about Ukraine crisis but we can presume. That relations between Moscow and Washington are going to be bumpy for some time. Is that a new challenge that you see admiral knew since your time in the Pacific. I think it is because. You know during my time and particularly toward the latter days we. We're beginning to do more. With Russia at least some -- have no basis. We both recognize. The importance of the Pacific. And the challenges. Are in the western Pacific. Much -- what we do particularly with -- north east to northeast Asia allies. There are issues and relationship with Russia there but as I looked at Russia. To me it was a good -- in the peace. It's the Pacific. Power as the European power so it's an Asian power because of the the influence of hasn't Central Asia and the challenges that. -- emerge from Central Asia. But it also was an Arctic power and if you look at the United States -- Pacific Arctic and one could argue that our involvement and NATO alliance draws us in into Europe and Europe and the significant -- making notes and that's and so. But European power as well also there were a lot commonalities. I think to your point John bumpy and -- of the future relationship as the unfortunate. Because Russia is going to face many challenges. In other economies news. There's really you know one trick -- that's based on energy they have terrible demographic. And I think it's human -- country were male life expectancy is dropping. And better because of that demographic. They're going to choose to you know rouge. Of their population and and therefore east. And so there are role in. Western Pacific I think is going to be quite challenge and yours Gordon. Well if you're terrific piece you talk about relations between the United States and India and the -- I think in my mind that the arc of freedom and prosperity. Which was the term that are also when he was Japan's foreign minister. I talked about in about ten years ago. I know that you don't use that term in your piece and you don't really focus that much on democracy. But the question is what you're thinking of something like the great democracies in the region working together or were you thinking along the alliance. And in the piece I did coal India -- one of that in a major democracies and Asia. And I and I didn't make the linkage purely. You know democracies but I would say that what it boils down to our country's. With similar principles. And and and underpinning all of those courses -- the democratic. Principles. That we value so much and I think India it doesn't well. In fact what I was -- commander in the Pacific. We. Began a series of exercises with Japan and India and the US. And -- world. Rudimentary at the time but I think you're beginning to see that relationship developed and a positive way end and then the other thing that you'll also receive. Relative to -- Japan for example is increased activity and interest between Australia and Japan. And you know Australia figured prominently in in the -- relationship because it really sits on on both of those great ocean. Introduction to the west and the in the Pacific. To the east and north. Admiral you write about moving a carrier from the Atlantic to the Pacific will that answers at the doubts that have developed around the South China Sea conflict. I'm not sure it's strictly about the south China's -- but I. That I looked to the future and as we talk about that rebalance -- some have called that that was true its internal microphone not agree balance. Has really much more appropriate. I think boarded dozens and emphasizes the importance that we place on the Pacific and Asia and that broader and of Pacific region and in order to be president and to be responsive. -- force structure is is going to have to be realigned in my mind and particularly. If we continue to see the defense budget squeeze. We've seen in the past couple of years. And as look to the future right. I see increased challenges in head I do think that you know we have to get out of this idea of we want an equal share on both -- you know part of the rebalance was subdued. 60% of the navy's -- structure and and a similar amount of air force. To the Pacific but I think. We we should and can do more I think that as we look to Europe for example that. Should be picked up. By our NATO allies so I really do think that it would be prudent put more force structure in the Pacific. Which would allow us to see more present. And would enable us to cover both South China Sea in the east Tennessee where both. Of those areas that are person. The competition. And the disagreements sort of manifest themselves sometimes. Quite aggressively Gordon. My sense that -- is that the relationships among the navies in the region United States China India Japan. Seemed to be much stronger and better than the relationships among the political leaders of those countries. And the big question is. I don't have those milk and build relationships with stand turbulence at other levels. The relationships among these countries. What I believe that they can't and I believe that those relationships. On the -- no level I'm -- as you pointed out that -- seem to. Be able to enjoy. Better relationship and the reason that I I believe that's the case. Is that we can go do things we can interact with one another and -- not on anybody's land. We do them over the horizon -- and -- and they don't carry a lot of the political baggage. But to me no -- relationships. Are very important. When you hit the ball that John talked about because. I often think about the mil to -- relationship as a flywheel on an engine. And other words if there's if there's a misfire or -- the purpose of that -- where it was to keep the momentum going to keep the conduit. Of of conversation manned and communication open. So not only do I think they can be important. I think that they should be valued. As being important and should be used issues. Provide the continuity that often times political -- he's. Experience. And look at Iraq had United States navy retired Annenberg distinguished fellow visiting fellow at the Hoover institution. Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com I'm John -- this is the John that's -- John thanks this is -- John that's a show Gordon tried my colleague co host. A Forbes dot com we're joined by Julian came Milch. Who at the national review online who's writing most recent. In the New York. Crack down on christianity not in Iraq. Not with the jihadist side of the Omaha but in China Chile and a very good evening to you now over the years I've learned that. China is extremely aggressive in suppressing the Christian church the Catholic Church the Protestant church even have an official charged there. This new round of crackdown it's called the brutality. Is this something that the Christians are remarking on have they not seen this level of an -- of hostility before good evening here. Demeaning -- for having me like an interesting thing it's really targeted engaging crop and what happened on that and considered one of China's much Christian region that's kind of a place where. The assertion that they had to reads an -- the balance for the past couple years that the fact that they're going to crack down there right now on securing. And edit than Cheney apparently and January at least 229. Churches have had their -- that torn down on the other churches have been torn down entirely. And it demolition notices going out over 100 more now what I think the bigger picture here is. In China has relatively relatively new leadership and that might signal kind of a pilot program for our broader crackdown christianity. Gordon. -- christianity and has certainly been established quite well he wouldn't show and they Jong province in general. And clearly what we have is a very large population which seems to be now very much under the gun from officials. The thing that strikes me about your piece is that these officials seem to be quite ambitious that they can actually go around and tear down these crosses. From hundreds of churches. What do they think they can get away with. You know I think it's probably coming from higher than just their regional hospital and I think that -- is -- interest of all. You've got for the first time one of the blue book papers and national policy papers. Looking religion is one of force that the your challenges to national security. And then on top a Pat Perez leaked government document. And that is instructing regional officials to crackdown in the political issued by crop and Bil lion pet project it. So while I think that may be some of them want to accommodate the church -- in the past they're coming under a lot of pressure for higher to crack down on it. And any got -- -- -- that christianity is really growing -- and mean to use that forum on religion and public light that fifty million Protestants nine million Catholics. Armada estimates they about a hundred million Christians -- in China and the Communist Party at 86 million members statements be glad -- been viewed that as a potential source of instability. -- some definitions there's an official Christian church in China and then there's an underground churches the underground church tolerated everybody knows about it. But many officials do know about the underground church and underground congregations sometimes don't hide their meetings. But in some places they have to and it's really a question of uneven enforcement but clearly -- underground church now is so big. That the Communist Party would do whatever it really things has got to accommodated it really has no choice. And Jillian is there any information that the Christians you say they're 58 million Protestants nine million Catholics according to the pew forum on religion in public life in China. Are they asking for help or assistance or support or rescue. You know I'm not asking for that that is the Chinese Government has -- really give them -- antiquities and that they would get it. But that when I think it could potentially going to be interesting factors that you look at -- province in particular in addition to being. One of the much Christian it's also one and a much entrepreneurial. I mean right now do you -- Christians now. Sending out volunteer workers to Yunnan Province -- earthquake cap and -- seed and being involved in their local communities CNET supporting elderly content supporting our and it says. They think when the government to crack down on me it really kind of politicize this and that also target something that's creating a social stability that ultimately the government wants. And it it's definitely a risky strategy. -- -- -- Now that the local cadres and say look we've torn down 229. Crosses where did you go from here to they just sort of let it rest. Or is there going to be more persecution of Christians you know I think -- really remains. To be seen what I am am afraid is that this is the first kind of pilot program -- out of a broader crackdown on christianity in China. I mean if they're going after a bit province if they're going after state sanctioned churches which is pretty and precedent and content in everything here is. And I think it -- baby that that's success that's going to be expanded across China and that's not a good thing for religious freedom. The puzzle to me and I'll start with Chilean on this chilly engine they not read the headlines in Beijing. In most sold the the savages. Prices. Are blowing up churches and mosques and blowing up tombs and persecuting Christians. -- the old the Syrian. Christian church in northern -- -- for a persecution in China like this. It links them with the worst elements in the news. I think no I mean it's it's bad publicity for them internationally but I think they're busy trying to trying to shore up some things that they see in the domestic threat that there may be left -- -- about. Who's their audience for this Gordon whom are they trying to please a couple of hot party bosses who were or part of the let's go red campaign that she's in -- likes. Well good to me is mystified because. For them to accomplish what they sent out to do that obviously got grand ambitions to basically do something that nobody else in history has ever been able to do. Which is to not only drive the church underground but also to get rid of it because that's ultimately they're goal. So I don't know you know it is just completely mystifying is that you say because there doesn't seem to be any good and games for the Communist Party in this. And when they -- down the churches are tired on the crosses. Are they unfamiliar with how it worked in the early church Julian I mean they just met underground they just they didn't need a building they met where -- -- in fact that's part of them lessons -- I had this in. In seminary they would draw -- and handouts have identified each other -- the Chinese are aware that that's how christianity started. You know I think that's going to be really interesting so when we talk about the underground church I was feeling so last I went to -- about underground churches it's quite above ground and you know the next ten government building and what it -- Tolerate that to continue our it's more questionable and -- ports. But what didn't think it and it I've read accounts that at the community church a couple weeks ago it they're trying to take on the craft and Christians responded that they people gathering. But they wanted to get an aircraft and the government and a paratroopers. Swat team policeman and ended up beating some of them -- electric batons and they think he's the real escalation of violence that's going to turn Christians against the government -- otherwise it would have been content to people religious and -- Reasoned with -- Gordon can this be part of the anti corruption campaign I mean it's a fantastic idea but she's in pain is aggressive in all directions. Well he's certainly is and I and I think a large part of his -- points up really does come from Beijing that local cadres are being ordered to do this. And I think this is really another symptom of the feeling political system try to do something which is completely. On impossible. And yet I think they're doing it for political dictates that only makes sense to leaders in Beijing. You have a quoted your piece in the New York Post -- from Bob -- what does he mean by many cultural revolution mentality. Well -- under -- the Chinese Government wanted to stand our religion. It used to be brutal means to do that you know beating Christians killing some of them are resting in -- and others. But that didn't work I mean it drove the church underground that you can really see it drop off and people converting and the people who -- converted remained Christians. Arab summit avenue tickets editor reform their alleged -- seat -- On that and it didn't help that but I think what you see here is that ever first it's more now on policies that they reminiscent of what happened then. And that's that's pretty disturbing. Jillian came out shares of -- of for the Franklin center and for the independent women's forum Gordon Chang. A Forbes dot com I'm John bachelor this is John that's for sure.

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