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NewsRadio 1330 KNSS>Audio & Video on Demand>>Wed 8/13/14 Hr 4 - Ralph Sawyer, author "Tao of War"

Wed 8/13/14 Hr 4 - Ralph Sawyer, author "Tao of War"

Aug 14, 2014|

Ralph Sawyer, author "Tao of War"

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

-- I'm John bachelor this is the John bachelor show. The middle came to China. 5000 years of civilization. We -- so easily but what does that mean what happened during those 5000 years that created to civilization was the envy of the the planet. About the same time that the west Western Europe. Was still getting organized. Moving from the period where the Roman empire been broken up in the college Indian empire scattered. And the rise of role in the rise of what we understand to be. The basis for the enlightenment and the reformation what was going on in China all this time as well there's a new book. The Dow wore the Marshall dowdy child. Translated by Ralph Sawyer with commentary by Ralph Sawyer. This. Takes us back to a period. Of eight and ninth century. AD in China. Dong dynasty. And they writer's name long challenge. However one -- is an historically. Minded man he writes in history he writes in philosophy. And the philosophy is out of the doubt. And the doubt takes -- back too loud so. Who we use aid as Ralph tells me -- Of blending together of nannies of many sayings in proverbs and wisdom. From a period of time around the -- Tunisian war -- were moving through history here because the west. And Asia are developing. Not parallel courses China's 5000 years of history is very well informed. By the Dow of war -- a very good evening -- -- congratulations correct me if I'd gotten anything wrong I wanna start with our writer. Because you comment on long -- comment. On that doll of war so this is a translation. Of the original -- war which is back to that. Fourth fifth and sixth century BCE. Written by a man in the eighth and ninth century AD. And commented upon and translated by Ralph Sawyer in the 21 century so will start with. Long John who was he what do we know about him good evening to you. Good evening always an honor to appear in your shows -- I'll Walton is a former. Military commander in that meant he was obviously bureaucrats. In the -- dynasty and that song of course is considered one of the great periods of Chinese civilization. Together with a song that follows that. And it was extremely troubled by what he saw on the border and by the immediate fifty year history before him. All of the effects of warfare at the pernicious. All pervasive destruction of the infrastructure of the loss of life the starvation and of course the battlefield casualties. And he tells us that in his introduction. Do we believe he was working for the emperor he was a comfortably seated he was -- a successful do we know anything about him personally. No we knew we know very little obviously if you held command you were a member of -- bureaucracy. As if he was entrusted with the border. He must have been well regarded because -- -- child who had bowed to the horrendous. Rebellion in the middle of the gates century he has used his forces his order protective forces to try to overturn the empire. So after that -- the rulers the -- for very cautious about who they gave border command. When you say border is this the Great Wall of China is this out towards Tibet is this all the way to. ID add to Asia towards Kazakhstan do we know where what board he was protecting. We don't know exactly where but it would definitely abandoned the question of the north western border the guitar and just like the Honda honesty these -- the two periods with China expanded to a maximum extent into the west into the Central Asia if you would. Now the period that he's reflecting upon that he's calling upon as an historical basis for he is. Philosophy sizing and recommendations really is a wise man. Making recommendations. Is the warring states period when his dad and what happens that. That's basically the fifth to the second century well the end of the third century of BCE. China had split into a number of states and Internet seeing warfare. Throughout this -- reduced the original goal let's say twelve states to six sparkles stage and then finally they were all conquered by the state of change who we all know from those wonderful -- figures in the west. About that between one d.s -- so it was a period of great. Great turmoil large scale battles incredible without -- warfare horrendous suffering. And that is approximately the period where we learn of -- so. Who whiskey and what is it said that he created with Dallas. Well a lot of there's probably a legendary -- that semi legendary figure who has identified as the progenitor of these concepts. Now isn't this the kind of naturalistic philosophy. Where people look at the they cosmology that look at the patterns of the universe about them. They try to understand how to be in harmony with the universe. Because when you're in harmony with the way the universe proceeds things are easy when you go against them. Such as planting your crops too early in the year or two late then things become very difficult. Lots of rights in poetic claim any rights in. That with the Chinese characters and your translator and what I take from your tax and I followed as closely as I can Ralph without having. The skill of being able to make these figures is that oft times there are several possibilities. Of the translation and it's -- -- it's profoundly important what the word means is that all correct. Yeah that's always the problem that any translator even from Greece. Or China faces because you look at parallel attacks and you look at the other words are used. But you have to try to read by context and then what the overall meaning what his intent might be. On the -- pitching itself is. It's probably has a 10200 translations into English it's an incredibly. Important book one of the five great books of Chinese civilization. -- its -- and being a genius series he projecting an idea under the doubt on to the dowdy -- that didn't add that anyone else -- -- know what else did. In other words interpreting this war I notice that it's possible also translated as. The Dow of peace or the Dow of a ruler of the Dow the right way so when he says war without controversy. Why would think so but there had already been some trend to understand the delegates -- In terms of activity in the world rather than that quiet this thrust. And this is what we call neo dollars and original dollars and it's true participation in the world. But what -- was also within this tradition -- thousand. Where instead of confucius being the greatest double because he advocated righteousness and you know benevolence and all these concepts and learning. Which dollars and basically issues. Computers become the greatest dollar say is because he's internalized -- being he's able to be active in the world but not perturbed. And he doesn't he doesn't grasping. So he's the perfect agent he embraces what we call way. -- away yes we're gonna come that again and again because that's the translation of Wu -- that's critical here however the audience for this book one ton. Composes -- very carefully with commentary and thanks to your translation it's it's quite lively commentary he argues with the text who would have been here is. Readers who who would it send it to how how how how would the emperor of redness. Well it was definitely presented to the emperor whether the emperor -- to read it or not some of the song dynasty emperors were very much. In their murder of dollars and and did read -- -- had you know. Add -- commend -- lecture that one dollar bill for our once or twice a week. Others not. But it after presenting it to the emperor he obviously would have circulated copies among his friends and other people in the sort of same level of the military bureaucracy that he was -- And maybe with some of the confusion literati types. Because he's he's so desperate to try to in warfare and the tong was facing many threats from the step recent public key content from the church and and so he's he's saying how can how can we survive how can we stop this terrible Carter's -- police stopped work there. The book is the -- of war the Marshall -- children Ralph Sawyer is the translator when we come back we're going to plunge into all under heaven and talk about the -- of completion. For the stages it and the -- I'm John bachelor. This is the John that's -- show. I'm John that's in this at the John but John bachelor show Ralph Sawyer is here his new book is the Dow of war of the Marshall -- child. Ralph provides commentary on -- -- is riding in the eighth -- ninth century who provides commentary on. The Dow of war. Which was composed somewhere between the sixth century BCE two the third century BC roughly the same time Athens and Sparta where tangling. In Greece and the rise of the Greek tensions leading to Alexander's so will plunge into there's this is very poetic language. All under heaven the -- of completion. Better do some definitions here he talks about sages and word these all under heaven what does all that mean round. Well all they have and it's just -- -- realm. And it means all the people the populace who live within that. The stages are people who have superior wisdom and exposed to be the guy. And where these are people who are not quite as you know astute. But are very morally qualified. So therefore they are the best sort of selection for a government official. There are terms in translation that are clearly venerated for the ruler of this is for to be a good ruler in war. Again and again we come to us solicitude. Frugality. And deference again and again I come to that I know that I'm going ahead a Ralph and I'm concentrating on warfare. How does that translate to warfare what did -- Chung won the M -- to learn from those three terms. Well basically found that most of the rulers and antiquity had brought that there -- civilizations that the difficulty if not extinction. Because they were arrogant. Because they were. Greedy they wanted other people's properties and land. And because state tax. Were you know made waters imposition upon the populist. So long wants to. Ruler to rectify himself to be in harmony with the -- he -- heaven -- -- is nourishing and sustaining the people. So we want to lure. To be focusing -- solicitude the people's welfare. It's the people have adequate food and drink they're comfortable. Then they will give their allegiance to the government if -- We the people get deleted from the government than this state -- strong it was strong economy you have strong. A motivation. You have citizen soldiers if you need to have that. And from galaxy what does that mean for -- -- -- to the ruler. Well most rulers built all sorts of pleasure palaces and had you know it is background is 3000 compromise and things like this. Groups of dancers in what how to by the twelve to twenty fours Bill Walton is saying. These are all causing hardship for the people. The government should not be the enemy of the people the government should not be caustic it that should not be making life difficult the government should exist. -- the benefit of the people for the welfare of the people because that's the way he envisions heaven and earth sustaining and nurturing. And deference. That's my that's my version of what he says. To hang back to not be fourth try to not push what does he mean by that to the rule. Well most rulers. Believe in themselves they have no lack of arrogance and he wants them to defer to the wisdom all of these stages of the -- these. But even more so to defer to the cosmological processes. To not be putting himself for. As the morning to be the first in the world to wanting to be let's say Putin at the moment. He wants them to be stepping back and facilitating. You know tranquility. Good nature. Social order all the things that will lead to people living good lives. Welcome to the tactics in a moment we're staying with strategy there's some real. There are some real twisters here that you have to focus on and -- going to help this OK here we got the best kind of ruler. Is. The -- of the stage is to lacked not content act chin action less action translation please round. Well basically anything and it won't junk understanding now anything that quote -- with the way the universe is patterned. Which is this solicitude and so and so forth we just talked about. This is essentially not action. And ruler is not contending with his own people for you know monopolizing resources and monies taxes and so forth. But he's also not contending with nearby states to -- their land then the next the people. Of course it won't go for understanding when you have this kind of ideal government. Everywhere will be attracted to it including. The people of the neighboring states. Annual thereby become the most powerful because everybody wants to be under a government that's been nine and virtuous. Yes it all makes sense when you read the doubt now the -- now we get really complicated taste. Faceless. Increased to the small. Commenced with the easy. The greater rise from the mine news. All these opposites he works in opposite he works in contrast how does that help -- -- to the ruler. Well basically want to go looking at that the situation that -- He'd like to get rid of weapons and warfare completely. And there's a strain of thought in is that salvaging which. It's cute weapons condemns them is still -- implements. But there's a second strain of thought that recognizes the need for warfare they wouldn't if you're Poland that -- is coming to the door. You better defend yourself but you better have the -- to defend yourself. So in order to do that you have to half preparations to one of the last chapters this sort of vision of -- rely even though the people don't venture from rural village. They still have military organization. This military organization is that the current. Your enemies know that the people look the ruler dissatisfied with their life they will fight and in addition they're organized. Now the question that comes up this -- do you take military action. In the -- Beijing -- says military action is sometimes necessary. And the way they approach it is at the earliest possible moment. They look at -- Patterns of growth. In the world. They look at for example the tree when the trees just beginning to grow with its obstructing your driveway and you chop it down -- -- pull -- out. So you -- the earliest incipient moment. To eliminate potential harm. Now this raises all kinds of conundrum obviously. But when you do have to act you have to act early and you have to act in accord with the way things work. I've I've go more for the cut at the paradoxes that are raised early in the book and we're going to get to the tactics in a moment. This -- to wells and action was affairs that is the saves lives naturally he doesn't force things I understand that. But then we get into translations where you. He does and he nurtures but does not possess he acts but does not rely his achievements complete he does not dwell in them. This is very much describing a person who's barely involved in human affairs almost standing passively bought. Right I would say he's he's a facilitator he understands the way the universe works they tried to facilitate things. In concorde with the workings of the universe because that will be the most productive path. But that doesn't stand up and claim that I -- originated in the progenitor. Or IE you know you only taxes because of this to you or me you know some some sort of gold or silver. He's he steps aside because he's he's working for the benefit of the people and in that sense it's considered it's declined that's action list. That which we have a lot of contradictions in this tax. The sort of the basic perspective is that the doll. The way things work is actually behind were beyond words that we try to conceptualize and give words to these things. We're in the paradox. All trying to -- something that's an affable. We have to kind of get into -- understanding. And then proceed forward in a productive manner but yet not be you know an agent of change. That is contrary to the way things should be. Let's turn to the contradiction indexes the Dow for Ralph Sawyer is the translator I'm John bachelor. John Baptist. John about show Ralph Sawyer here in the book is the downpour I recommended. Because it's so it's a challenge to 21 century thought to deal in these. In these opposites and the recommendation of the actual list action. To act and not content but now a plunge right into the tactics. Ralph thirty spokes collectively form hub I think I understand this he's talking about chariots vessels and rooms. Thirty spokes collectively form a hub but through non being the chariot can be employed clay is prone to make a vessel. But through non being the vessel is useful. Doors and windows are chiseled for a room but through non being the room has used -- through being there is benefit. Through non being use help hero. Well basically if you think about the ball if the ball was solid. You wouldn't the other putting liquid in it and viscerally with the Terri -- the wheel of the Conosoga wagon you have all these folks coming to this -- But if the public solid if you didn't have that aperture there you couldn't put the actual shaft throw it. And therefore you couldn't mow the wheels on the wagon so that's what he's saying is that the two are in a compliment trees there and kind of essential tension. Not his vocabulary the way we would -- -- bit of course. And its is that people always emphasized that being. In the concepts and they don't observe this. The way things actually work in the universe are almost equally dependent on not being on acuity and emptiness on what is -- there as much as what is there. And she did she come to that again. This will get to the translation a moment but the surprising thing is long -- takes this very poetic imagery and applies to warfare. Those who were enthralled with warfare are doomed to -- those who forget warfare are similarly doomed to parish. How does -- resolve that paradox. Well. -- I don't think it's paradox I think it's basic observation that goes back to the warring states period technology to some pop pop. Because people who have gone forward like the Persian and so forth trying to conquer their enemies. And -- their friends even. They were -- -- warfare and they failed. But if you totally forget warfare you're unprepared as -- -- real -- was in a couple of cases and we almost. It's suffer consequences from that which were quite dire. If you're prepared if you put your head in the sand and turned away and oblivious to the evil in the world. Then you're equally susceptible. To being destroyed. So therefore he's recommending or the Dow of war is recommending. Neither a military state. Nor a pacifist state something in between what is this this is all -- always in transition -- never one thing or another. Right well the realm that's constantly changing. The ideal is that if you are sufficiently strong prepared that you created -- -- image and deterrent force. On the positive side you'll hopefully attracting everybody. Although you and I both know that. A virtuous meant to say it more. Likely to get it would have been not. In their conception is purely virtuous -- will attract supporters because people believe they will benefit they will flourish under him. So on the one hand you've got the positive -- to. Good society. And on the other hand you have the military preparations. Which you can create and prepare. In order that you don't need to use them. Now will apply this to so and so which you've also translated. As I understand that sunset my reading since have Ralph not yours so correct me is -- this has never never never. -- -- asked for a fight always avoid a fight win without a fight do you not fight now that's very consistent with the Dow of war. Economically as possible. And always find another way. Besides engagement. However you use tactics to win -- battle without fighting how -- that how is that consistent with the Dow of war -- used to use strategy. Too overwhelmed tactics. What is diminished is that -- strategies so that it appeals to human nature's appeals to the conditions of the realm then you are basically approaching non action with. You know in China the emphasis has always been on winning through wisdom we called her show went through wisdom. That's because many battles were fought by people who were outnumbered and the only thing they could use its unorthodox works there. For the is it is the end of the spring out of the game -- -- states where this. -- Internet seeing warfare is become very prevalent. So even a victory if you have to fight someone even a victory. Could be worse than the defeat because you'll have wasted your forces and created a power vacuum and your enemy behind you will just come in and overtake your state. And so what does emphasizing winning. By a -- the enemies alliances. May be seizing something you love political core action. Strengthening Jewish state so it's so strong that deter them from attacking in this again is if you have -- state and Chinese military thinking of that period very much emphasizes. If you have a state that's attracted people and the people give their allegiance which is the -- -- The dynasty in the west actually you know most of power. Then -- so formidable that no one will be our contest with you so there are many ways to go forward. And present warfare. I swings I've followed Ralph's translation thank you swings the art of war. Now I -- here because this is about military organization. -- -- admirers. Antiquity. All officers of antiquity and he points to them. As being tranquil. Disciplined. Upright. A little hard to understand and unpredictable. Those are all wonderful characteristics of leading generals even in the twentieth and 21 century. It is that because we've followed without knowing it Ralph. Well I think it might have suddenly do it's human nature in the fact that this civilization these balls similar practices. For similar situations there are some differences in the practice of warfare in China and the less. But. Characterized China for example as. Emphasizing these sections. Well theoretically true they certainly have lots and lots of theory about it if we think about the west you look at the -- -- he's already be the perfect embodiment is craft and deception and -- -- So -- both civilizations. Tend to have the same sort of manifestations. The way they interpret them or slightly different. And the officers of antiquity used all these and all these characteristics were representative. Of people who were successful. One -- is referring back to the warring states period and everyone knows this in the eighth and ninth century. Their feeling tension. And he's pointing to those who were successful in the -- and state warring states period -- I read that correctly. Well absolutely and of course to the legendary period which came before being forced civilization you know declined -- -- we would say defaulting to having concepts and valuing and all that sort of thing contention and strike that. This is where he differs a little -- -- -- -- one -- says the soldiers need anger. In -- of these you know effective fighters but in the salvaging it says that the best warriors are free of anger. Right and the best warriors are. Are. People who warriors who go into battle. Expecting. That in victory will be mournful explained that well. Well the damaging. Condemns or warfare and weapons in general and long Johns and of course because of his. Nature of this meditation picks up on that. The tendency. To motivate people. To make warfare seeing glorious and when you kill a lot of the -- yes you know this Greeks did against the person and so forth this is something people celebrate. But indeed dollar concept the taking of any life. Which is contrary to the way of the universe. That. We should try to nurture life not destroy life. So when this sort of situation arises it's inescapable. Even though you are victorious you shouldn't Gloria that you should feel as much grief. For the fall of the enemy as for your own people. Now the challenge a -- will be preserved I'll read it Ralph and you can help us. That curve will be preserved the crooked straight the depressed full. He exhausted knew the few will gain the many will be diluted. I'll stop there what does that mean that curve will be preserved why is it that the -- war admires the current. Well because if you're very straightforward here want your sort of -- force on force. This is the greatest weight to incur casualties and to you know -- -- forces. However if you use maneuver you use that devious methods used deception as he says as the dollar would think that's separately it in warfare use the unorthodox. This is the way you preserve yourself gain the victory the the with the least cost to everyone not just yourself but also the enemy. That's similar for other things that felt good seeing emphasizes. In in these pairs. Generally emphasizes the lower value one. And by quick move like taking the lower value position you were able to preserve yourself. Those who you know want to be much of -- the -- get the glory you know be the winners so the voice or something like that. These are people who are slated for fall in warfare is the same thing the obvious this straightforward. The it's true it's true definitively strong and the Belgian consulate says this the strong is the -- -- death it will break. It's the weakened flexible. The working in my bamboo world today in the -- hit in the face I remembered bamboo was unbelievably flexible this is an image. That these Chinese military things not specifically long -- but certainly had the back of his mind. You -- that bamboo it's flexible it's snaps back -- prevails and they can also overwhelming enemy. And it's the Chinese. Lords reading this at the time what they have recognized his very careful use of curved or clients he is another word you use or non assertion non competition with able -- that irony. Oh absolutely. Whether they've won accepted or not it's. Quite different questions. So they would have been there would have been tension even in his time eighth -- ninth century. People would have said might makes right and he would say no fly and see non assertion winds. And that's a that's a philosophical debate do you believe that was a debate in the warrior class. Oh absolutely it it was new beta along the within move the military commanders it goes back to antiquity. All the classic military -- it's an ongoing debate between the confusion. Literati who you know -- to bureaucracy and sort of stood off. And against the military establishment. They always believe that just by being virtuous that the emperor could prevail there would be no warfare and of course that was constantly prove them wrong but dates tended to want to spend all the money on. Education measures and so on and so forth. Rather than having a strong military establishment. So they were weak and client because they've been on the thing. -- just saying we need to be client not because we're capable but because this is the best policy. The book is the -- of war the Marshall -- -- Ralph so lawyers the translator you wall of seeing the pictures of the terra cotta army that emperor the first imperial emperor I learned from Ralph. Shin she while when we come back what does long Sean what is the -- -- tell us about that particular period and how you can assist. -- virtuous rule them all under heaven I'm John bachelor this is the John that solution. Yeah. I'm John that serves this is the John Dotson shot. -- so lawyers here hit his translation and commentary of the -- of war long Tom this is a book from the eighth -- ninth century AD. Referring to the warring states period in China. 64 fifth third century BCD. About the Dow of -- Silva in that same period we're commenting now on. What it means to a sister ruler because this is not just about military affairs it's about military affairs. At assisting the ruler and Ralph you write this is one of the Powell anti war chapters assisting the ruler with the Dow. Shin -- she Wong was the emperor of the terra cotta. Form but he failed is that correct to want -- was telling people not to fail like him. Right exactly we're still strong he is a state conquered the rest of the realm. By using a variety of methods subversive military force I mean they feel that armies of 500000 people. Inflicted casualties that the battle of strong thing of 400000 man. Everything was very much straight where they were the sparkle of China. They're values in their state agriculture and military that's the only two ways that you got rewarded. Its success in agriculture or success on the battlefield. And this sort of draconian approach. Was all hard there was no soft this there was no maneuver there was no flexibility. His advisors. People -- These were men who stress and -- -- very essential you know these immense stress the hard direct approach. And won't join in the saying that this is all wrong he he managed to conquer the realm yes. But he couldn't hold onto it. You know because it was still a strong it was too caustic the people rebel. They hated them and they overthrowing and within twenty years the Honda -- had risen there had been several rebellions. Billions of people died unfortunately. Therefore this approach is -- you need to approach that if you expand interstate. Nurture the people to give them rest and you look you know you used benevolent policies and in this regard. He's integrating Confucian values righteousness benevolence the -- social order these are all Confucian values the program of the confusions. He's saying that this is how. You can balance the hardness this is how you do this which you don't. Imposed punishment to people don't follow it you lead by example. Utopian activist you don't know basically put down their -- you try to. Create a problem. Context in which people want to participate. The the Dow of the -- is to act not content we need to get to that translation of -- hall way what is the debate about that round. Well -- way means basically nothing done wolverines did nothing in the way -- mean action so no action. If you don't act then you're away that's different way -- you know action list. And in this sense it's a one of these transcendent terms it points to. Actions. Which is the paradox here is -- your actions. In which. The participant is not taking any possesses value. He's doing things for instance is long guns understanding of course -- doing things for the benefit of the people for the realm. And it's in harmony with the patterns of the universe in harmony with the doll. The dollar haven't in the the virtual earth. And therefore. It won't just concept this is action less even though you and I would say this is action. There is nothing not done if lords and kings could cleave to its myriad things would be transformed by themselves. After they -- transformed should they want to arise I will repress them. With unnamed simplicity simplicity unnamed simplicity similarly has no desire. When they do not desire and our class and all under heaven. We'll correct themselves it's very poetic to date debate this a 1012115100. Years ago -- -- absolutely this is this so called hundred flowers period. And that this book itself probably contains debate because that view there is fairly far to the we might say to the right. Most of the -- Beijing would not accept the idea that -- -- going to do any kind of repression no matter what it is. I will repress them with unnamed simplicity that doesn't exactly sound like a -- on the road. We come back to. The credible worlds are not beautiful the chapter titles -- fat threat to the fact Hewlett. Credible words are not beautiful this is the Dallas heaven is to act not content we need to go one more time to that. Because I want to make sure I understand this as a roller. You act but you don't content. That means you act non competitively non contentious. Do you increase. The small you don't. You don't take on the great. You you make beautiful the ordinary is that what you hear is you're always working inside of what is possible and you're not forcing things -- -- say that correctly. Absolutely just -- -- -- -- early on in the program that if you're harmony then things are easy the if you accord with the flocks and this is the concept you'll also find in the aging the famous -- Daniel. If you accord with the flux of things. The past it's simple. If you contravene them the passes difficult. We say don't push. Is that -- is that a fair translation of what's going on here when you say to somebody don't push it leave it alone. Well I think it -- -- concepts. It's not limited to that but certainly entails with certain. And in military affairs you win by not contending. You New York's you're supreme on the battlefield because you didn't cross blades. In fact you didn't even have to arrive at the battlefield because you were superior strategy your virtue under all under heaven. Won the contest before there was an opponent is that they ham at aim of one -- Well that's game but he also recognizes that sometimes there are clash of arms therefore you wanna win this quickly as possible but of course there's the belief is that. Your kingdom is such a virtuous plays such an ideal paradise that your enemy's soldiers. Who are often under tyrants in other traverse the dictators. They only know one of fighting against GO they would rather surrender. And go over be well treated by you he Chou dynasty which is the one that conquered the show in 1000 BC roughly more or less. That's how they want they want by virtue. Because they -- all soldiers declined to fight against them their own ruler was such a tyrant was such an evil person. That day actually wanted to be that would have. The -- of war the Marshall doubt you tell me. Ralph Sawyer as the translator I'm John bachelor this is the John that solution.

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