Good evening I'm John bachelor this. The -- after the show. They doubt the immediate. Cardiff Wales. Thursday. -- within the next hours. The 28 member states and NATO and invited Mr. Bush Shiancoe the president of Ukraine in attendance and observer status. The president of the United States yesterday and again today pointing to the meeting in Cardiff Wales because of the confrontation over Ukraine. However we can see quickly that Ukraine is no longer. The center of the story this is about NATO forces Russia vs -- Putin's Kremlin. And the ambitions of a reawakened. Russian military there is -- NATO led by mr. Rasmussen the Secretary General are putting together a rapid reaction force called a spear him. Also at the same time NATO is. Conducting. Military exercises. War practice. Up across. Eastern Europe. Especially near Ukraine border perhaps in Ukraine in these next days dispute is unhappy without the Kremlin is unhappy with that. They are answering of course with the fog of war in Ukraine and what else that brings us. Two nuclear weapons the Tawny -- twentieth century was -- by the threat. A nuclear exchange. When the Cold War ended so noted that threat we are told however there. Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com joins me Gordon a very good evening to you recently published very recently published. Your assessment of nuclear weapons and this standoff right now between NATO. And Russia is there indication that Russia is we awakening its nuclear weapons force as well as its military. On Friday library of Britain said that Russia is a nuclear power he talked about nuclear deterrence. And he spoke of eastern Ukraine as part of Russia. It's clear what he thinks that he's going to use his most destructive weapons to protect what he's got at least that's what recess. We welcome right. Now someone to comment on what looks to be. Blast from the past this looks like back to the future Harry Carey is a 'cause he honest is managing editor of national interest. And non residents senior fellow of the China policy institute Kari let's start with your demo go to the rest of the world. Right now is Europe playing this game hard are they looking at. Vladimir Putin's language of nuclear weapons and responding in kind good evening -- Beauty -- well I think at the moment I think the Europeans they've really that is well the United States. Just -- still trying to sort of put together a strategy of really how -- handled -- Having it you have to really add up to about a report in terms of what his strategy is Ukraine. You know it there's obviously been various reports satellite images. You know. Columns of Russian tanks and Ukraine. There's been reports. -- soldiers that are not -- ukrainians. You know you're conducting various operations are helping the Russian backed separatists and there's this. So we sort of had this new type boat I guess you can call a regular warfare it would not -- troops helping allies. In you know military operations. And I don't think NATO or the United States really goes sort of how to handle this child tricked out its new challenge it's it's something that. You know NATO's forces or you know the greens that matters sort of had the strategy to sort of -- us. At the same time. You have to Ukraine in the -- economy that was really. Tinderbox before this all leave it started out to you but it used to house. Some sort of peace agreement -- a lot of Cuba and today. Proportion good Ukrainian president seem to indicate maybe some willingness to to talk about that. And there's going to be some talks and that's on Friday but it had to portion -- and I guess supposes that the Russian separatists. You know even if there is -- as something that and this conflict. That this city's don't you ask well -- they are pretty much in ruins. Large sections of eastern Ukraine in our heart damage it'll cost billions of dollars to bring sections back. So if it's Ukraine that that ultimately reaching parts of territory. Whether Russia experiments some form or other work whether operator not. Somebody has -- the -- -- these territories. And I don't think anybody really has planned pebble. So we need to -- this wouldn't have -- -- that's going on you really have a situation here that I don't think anybody would have expected you know a year two years ago. So all all the extra sort of a quack. Harry today the president gave -- thirty minute speech in Estonia. And he said many of the right things about defending NATO allies including the baltics states. But there was one sentence in that speech that I think Putin will sort of take away and he'll say that this was the hub of the matter. President Obama said that there is no military solution in Ukraine. Well I think that Putin believes that there is one is actually implementing it. And he's probably seen a big green light because he understands that the president is not willing to use force. To counter what the Russians are doing. How do you see it. Well I. I think it's interesting I -- that -- -- equipment added that we've been missing or conversation. Is that the Russian military itself is very much back in the equation. You know it does in the late nineties early ninety's that we we talked a lot about how the Russian military it was on what I think people need to realize all the -- and -- fifteen years. -- ever put this institute is very very comprehensive plan to rebuild the Russian military we have to look at that because. You know how is considered doing this I was making these moves in Ukraine how -- feel he's able to meet these critics. I've accepted that really hasn't had the meeting yet that this sort of -- -- -- talking about. Certain national security. Media is that Russia for the 755. Billion dollar -- over the next decade to rebuild Russia's armed forces. We're talking conventional forces we're talking 2300 -- Hank. 12100 helicopters and planes over a hundred satellites sort of we all of these things together they -- -- more potent. So on top of they're also rebuilding their nuclear forces UICBS. News submarines that can carry these nuclear weapons. You know under the water and they have offered attack. So BR audit all these things -- put together. That the Russians are able to sort of you know meet these types of veiled threat in in what not much more credible. At the same time you know you see that the collapse of the US Russian relations. Russian relations. In Russia the kind of isolated so what they're able to do is that the postal equipment that can help others and port these industries like the country like China. This makes this whole situation you've been more scare. You talk about some things that are scary. It's Stephen Eisenberg who is one of John's assistants just mentioned to me Morris just a few moments ago. That Russia's ministry of defense today announced a strategic nuclear forces exercises. This month and they're going to be large scale. This seems to me to be a very important element in the sense that Putin is willing to use everything that he has. To keep what he has already taken from Ukraine and perhaps take more from the Baltic States. But this seems to me to be a Paramount challenge to -- No I absolutely. I accurate records I think you know really needs to take a hard look at it's it's sort of core functions. You know with the war on terrorism is quite region early in early party -- You know just a few years ago. You know talk about out of area operations in combating terrorism that nature -- -- -- -- kind of re asserting its its old rule. In protecting territorial integrity of its members. But it also -- really look in the -- Obama the countries in NATO. Are barely support of the military is beyond. Sort of the bare necessities. It would look back at the Libya war now I think we can all agree it would be it was not. Major it's very popular in Russia. But yet they had a hard time you've been dropping simple port it's on target they had -- the United States and ask for more -- precision guided munitions. These are sort of basic functions that a military needs. And it you know it is those things that that is very difficult meaning of the Baltic States Poland. You know we're not talking massive those powers that are spending more percentage that do you think countries like Germany and others it really. He shows that it was really caught off guard in this crisis they really need to think about -- To reintegrate their forces but not only that. Basically. Spend more money in more resources into these basic functions. -- just a quick response thirty seconds. London will it pay for it yes or no. That's about it that it parents willing to pay for it Yasser now. I I think and Ryan will it pay for it yes -- now. I don't think Berlin will it pay for it yes -- now. -- -- on its managing editor national interest that comes down to the baltics in Poland and they turn their pockets out every other century Gordon Chang. It's dot com I'm John -- I'm John bachelor Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com my colleague in co host North Korea. Over these last days a strange side CNN in North Korea also. Washington Post correspondent. And a -- field in North Korea so this publicity campaign. And that's what it is. Respect told. Joins us now Bruce is the author of the last Dave's of Kim Jong-Il and a North Korea watcher for a long time but this looks like a very twisted path. Is a very good evening to you can get by. Matthew Todd Miller. And Jeffrey Edwards now are prisoners. In a prison. State North Korea a -- failed state why suddenly. Television how did this advance Kim Jung on good evening to you. Good evening to you sir and you know I I think it one of the reasons why they've used television maybe. That you know Kim Jung then comes from a more modern background and out of his father certainly he had more access. -- multi media extender when he was growing up and in Switzerland but you know this also shows that the north Koreans continue to be ultra paranoid. Against foreigners in their country I mean. For goodness -- one guy is being held just because he had a Bible in his hotel room. So you know it all like it's safe it is you know for tourists were planning on going over there and there is a few. Com I would just be very careful because you never know what Walsh said the very unpredictable North Korean security services or their leadership off. You're absolutely right -- we had the Korean War veteran. Who was trying to contact some of the people that he worked with. He was imprisoned. And of course we have these 31 for leaving a Bible in his hotel room. The other for try to defect to North Korea that was Matthew Todd Miller and then Kenneth they -- tour operator who is also missionary. You know there -- things that people here would think to be innocuous our major crimes in North Korea. And now we got these three people. We have an unprecedented series of interviews. It seems that something must be up between. Pyongyang and Washington. And this is absolutely fascinating with the way the regime is now dealing with the rest of the world. Yes I think it's fascinating Gordon. I mean as you know the north Koreans have tried to use incidents like this to kick off talks in the past. We saw that happened when Bill Clinton when he went over and got those two. Young ladies out there. Also like I think in north Koreans in addition to trying to gain attention this. Maybe trying to figure out a way to get back to talks with -- us. The reason not being because they want peace and stability on the Korean Peninsula but of course because they're looking to gain more concessions. From the United States and other regional players there. And this is occurring at the same time that relations between the Chinese in the north Koreans seems to be in trouble. Clearly you have a North Korea that is reaching out to other powers because they see the Chinese to be on reliable -- for instance Pyongyang has now had outreach to not only Moscow. But also Tokyo. And with these series of interviews on CNN. They're reaching out to the United States so this is unprecedented behavior and it's going to be I think. Perhaps a turning point maybe not a good turning point. But -- turning point nonetheless for the North Korean regime because I don't know which way they're gonna jump but they're gonna do something. Well I I agree -- you as always Gorton. I'm just as I'm sure you are completely fascinated with the break it is just did between China and North Korea. Over the past few months. I mean. The Chinese have pulled back on the fuel they provided just such an extent that we've even seen reports. Of cutbacks in tactical training. Four armored in mechanized units in North Korea that's almost unprecedented. For the past fifteen years and we've seen you know the north Koreans actually move some armored units. Up in the provinces that border China. And you know this is not something frankly I would've predicted because I would have thought they'd have kissed and made up months ago and we just haven't seen it happen. Does this mean that the Chinese explanation. Decades right now that they can't do an -- about North Korea because they fear a collapse. Does this mean that that excuse has been retired -- Well I I think it may you know -- the Chinese obviously as you and Gordon well know or more tied into the north Koreans than anybody else on earth. And they may be seeing something with the and regime's stability that the rest of us are not seen. And I don't know that means they're throwing in the towel and just allowing this regime to -- along until it no longer is able to survive. But you know certainly. -- I've been very surprised. By this break that has occurred between China and North Korea and it's really been in existence since about October 2013. When we saw -- contact the quote unquote number two guy in the government beat person and actually cued it. By -- Jonathan's government. You know Bruce you were the first. Korea expert to look at -- Kim Jong-un and realize how unstable the regime is. At a time when everybody else was saying that he had quickly consolidated control. Now what we are seen are really very strange moves on the part of Pyongyang's. And it was seemed to me that this would be a validation of your earlier points there's things are not bright inside the regime itself because it's doing things that we haven't seen before. I don't think you just walk us through a little bit of that. Well we we -- for one thing we've seen a lot of purges that have occurred. I'll wait more purges and occurred under his father his father originally came to power in 1994. And the difference between the purges that occurred in his father's regime on the first three or four years of that -- And these -- were these were just as you know we're very public. And and that was that was something that was quite shocking to me we've also seen a failure to consolidate power within the military. Which is one of the top three institutions in the country next to the security services and the party. And that's very distribute you don't control the guys with guns you're not really totally in control and furthermore we've seen reports. That the most powerful entity within the party organization and guidance department does not have confidence in Kim -- time. And that they have not agreed to give up much of the power. That they didn't have under his father Kim Jong-Il so the very least one thing that is very clear right now out of folks like you -- -- is. Kim Jong-un has not fully consolidated his power yet there is no one guy that's fully in control of anything in North Korea. And that is unprecedented. It is never been that way until now it was that -- in the Kim Jong-Il and it was not that way. Under -- can also. Bruce a technical question we have less than a minute -- Who's in charge of the nukes is there one bureau one commander or is -- shared responsibility. Well that there's two different aspects of the of the nuclear program. There's the actual weaponized. Nukes the nuclear weapons that is to say the bombs and probably warheads for missiles. And then there's the research side. They actually have an institute but as much bigger than an institute that takes care of that and previously. Both sides of the nuclear. The nuclear aspect of their weapons -- answered directly to Kim Jung -- One would believe that those two institutes answer directly to Kim Jong -- now. But it's unclear I haven't seen any reports at all. Since he took over about how he's fairly new nuclear program. Other defected as you know they did another test. Last year that was about three times as big as any testing. Bruce Beck told the author most recently of North Korea and regional security in the Kim Jung on era Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com I'm John bachelor. -- It's. And. I'm John that this is the John best -- -- from the surface of the planet earth. We go to lower orbit again again again with X 37 -- my favorite rocket plane this is the star. Of a 1930s. Radio melodrama but in fact here we are on the 21 century and Bob Zimmerman who keeps the website beyond the black is here. To tell us that this astonishing rate of success for X 37 -- remind everybody what it is getting Bob. Good evening John expansive and B it's roughly a two spoke to reusable mini shuttle that Boeing built for the air force they're usually building for. Absent that so of course decide it is just too good so they canceled it the F -- stick it up. And they -- committees and they've both flown in space want to come back to earth and the one that went to forest. Went back on the second flight and it's now been up there more than 600 days almost 630. Days. And there's no sign of when it's coming back out. The first two flights were completely successful they were up. All part of the year and in all more than a year and a half and now this -- is approaching two years in alternate. We don't know exactly what's on a job though it's pretty much assumed they testing. Equipment in the if it's not hard. -- Department of -- to C help works for the fact that look at it closely. I would goes so waiting two years or more to do that his quote you have to spend the time and have a topics that all of there is the possibility John you know we really don't know much about this there's a possibility and think it's now and it's just stop there for good but I personally doubt that. -- that's very likely this is just a big success story. The technology of usable like this -- usable is going to be acceptable to a lot of little things now. I want spaceship -- to be a success and it's had a new flight tested glide test and as successful and what are they looking to about. Well it's you know a bit different than what we think is going on now and it kind of said that themselves that they put the new engines on spaceship two. And Richard Branson. Absolutely wants to fly by the end of this year so they said they got to fly at least three -- flights with the new engines. And then put him on the space ship. But to do that they've got to do they had to do quite predict the glide test -- last week. What they were doing was testing the dynamics and the maneuverability. Of these spaceship. Oh with a new engine on it because you know this slightly different weight distribution slightly different position means -- having a little different. You gotta make sure it's gonna go right away expected so they did that and that was to success as far as we know. What comes next is a few -- -- powered flight they've got to get this thing flying to get it up to at least sixty miles. To show that they can do it before they put. And you -- like Richard Branson on it. I gotta say again that unfortunately that long delay getting spaceship two up in the gap. Is almost the world's passing them by it was getting close that in private space that can get orbit. Instead of do it possible local and so spaceship two which is a great idea lot of things will be learned. Might just be too -- Battle of the bands Ilan mosque for -- is Jeff Bezos -- of the billionaires with private spaceflight companies have their own SpaceX and blue or or origin. What is the battle over Bob. Well this is getting this is why spaceship 200 neglect elected pass over these. Two giant companies SpaceX of courses the most well known and successful but that actually launching commercial satellites with their falcon nine rocket. And it actually launch the dragon capsule to bring -- -- ISS several times. And they also been testing the the possibility of getting their first stage of the falcon nine. Back to earth on a vertical landing in so it can be reused. Well it turns out that -- the results is company blue origin. Got a patent. Four. Bringing a first stage back to our vertically at landing it on the platform in the ocean they got patents of. And so SpaceX. Is challenging that patent because it says this is not new technology is not even a new idea many people thought about it that has in the past. And we're doing tests and we don't think that -- that idea should belong to large. And so they're challenging it if they don't get that patent challenged it could cause them problems down the road where they might have to pay. Larger money every time they bring their first stage back. Safely to the ground. I have been so -- a -- that was one of the great successes of these last years it was the Japanese space program and now they've got a higher boosted to -- do watch. To do it looked exactly the same thing they had -- the -- in which they unveiled the completed -- it was a two. And it's gonna go to an asteroid it's going to. It's got it's got to read many -- words. It's got to land that the Europeans have built. And it's gonna go to like asteroid of natural Castro Wright yet. And it's even been doing experiments similar deep impact with the go to actually police and impact of which will create a creatine Credo that explosion. And then they -- -- analyze the dust from the explosions and the major. Major planetary mission to the Japanese in -- had some success with type which is though it had a. A lot of problems with a vengeance and then -- to get back to earth it was a great achievement. So this the next the next mission and it's accepted goal. -- it -- -- 2018. And bring in the samples background when he money. It's so that they'll unveil the optical pick choose there's a -- on behind the black and. -- I just mentioned Bob that this is the narrative of the Andromeda strain that brought back -- out. And a virus that -- tabbed plastic can cause all kinds of threat to the United States. Despite a boost do and does anybody get all excited about that narrative anymore Bob bringing back something hostile so war. Well almost is they have been a bunch of mission that have bought the materials back to earth does not just the -- Apollo missions. And there's a double reason for quarantine the material. Start brought just back from the comet again I have been so ones is that. And you want them to have come back somewhat. Insulated from our department and not just because. Mostly be enough because you really worried about and Andromeda strain -- may be concerned current. You want -- and isolated because. If you go to really. It's. Study in the style of materials all common detailed accurate material you don't want to get them contaminated with earth. And so they have very very careful about opening up those capsules. And studying what's inside because they. They failed they want to be able to get good science that it missed it gets contaminated with earth materials before and and they don't know anything it's all the waste of time that's the main issue. Is there a possibility of votes being hit we have. And aliens. Like form I would be much more about people would about. I I still enjoy Andromeda strain it's a great movie even before Digital's. New horizons out bound for Pluto what's the update. New horizons is the state -- that's gonna fly by. Pluto had a few -- next year and it's approach it finally getting its final countdown to that mission. And so they hired the mission -- suspect has been hibernating not at all and so what's gonna happen now -- in preparation for the July. 2015 flyby is -- and now have to get weekly status -- respect to -- and at that beginning in December. And then then they will bring it back polite and start to take photos is that begins to approach and for the July -- by. One thing that's still -- negative John is that they had hoped to have. Eight let it fly by -- to another cut the belt objects beyond Pluto. But so law they have been unable to find any object. That in an orbit that is the position that we its fuel. New horizons will be able to reach after it goes back to -- I'm not surprised by that that was -- this -- not happened. The public relations but that's what we stand right now it's gonna be really exciting next year I mean. You got a lot of things happening here it's going to be really cool to have is better accommodate that it's going best Lugo. It's good stuff -- Now for the sad news of the week from a space fly. The death has the ghettos and this is not about an advertisement for an American insurance company Russian biology satellite photon M for what happened. Well they have some problems really put it out they've -- -- control of it and got control back they ended up this weekend abruptly bringing it back two weeks are currently. And when they brought back they announced that the debt goes that had been on board. They were hoping they reproduce in weightlessness -- peace something. From that learn something. They had all died during the mission sometime they don't know -- and then they have not released any information about what killed them. But -- that's what we know also blog again goes back however about the flies copilot this is piloted spacecraft to survive and so that's. Bob Zimmerman hit the website behind the black guest they get those passed away sacrificed like like coach the first dog in space. Four. Beyond. I'm John bachelor this is the John that system. Okay. A I'm John that's Gordon Chang Forbes dot com students with me and we go to Delhi has -- -- -- A former civil servant and a man who keeps an eye on China joins us. To comment on the recent meeting and strong. Show. And. Mutual appreciation between Delhi and that is the new elected prime minister of India. -- -- remotely and Tokyo mr. rob made the strong minded. -- Terry he indicating. Prime minister of Japan today a very good morning to you. An article in the New York Times that I recommend to everyone in Delhi as well as everyone in New York -- just come up David Sanger is the chief. Washington correspondent of the New York Times and the headline is. The three headed monster challenging Obama's foreign policy. And then there's a gallery of three pictures to the left Baghdad -- the numb to care of the man leading the war gang in Mosul. To the right Vladimir Putin needs no introduction. And in the middle here is a surprise the Bobble -- doll looks exactly like the president of China she'd been paying. Jay is this is surprised at Delhi that right now the New York Times regards the president of China as. Threatening as the president of Russia and the monster in charge of ice is good morning to you. Good morning where they accommodation and certainly will come as a surprise bill -- of them together and seem picture. Especially about. And that's actually quite long. And during that trip -- give a speech where he referred to an unnamed country with a eighteenth century mindset of territorial conquest. Just off the top your head who do you think that he was referring -- When he made it quite explicit Gordon without actually naming. A country. But he made it quite explicit that the difference -- to China. But he spoke about. You know territorial ambitions on demand and walked up. And it the only country which has been. I -- certain that and pushing that has been China since 2007. -- and your government. Right now is under new management. -- prior to that the congress party had a policy of trying to avoid conflict with China. And very much shying away from it even when the Chinese troops being invaded or shouldn't say invaded that. These territorial incursions high in the Himalayas such as in what doc. But recently we saw the Chinese try the same maneuver couple weeks ago. And it seems like the Indian forces chased them out of Indian Controlled territory. South of the line of actual control. Is this really the policy of the new government to be much more assertive when the Chinese. Incur on to China into Indian territory. I think the new government. We will certainly be more assertive -- Try and question robust response. We've just seen their reaction is what has Pakistan is concerned. I think -- -- incident. Reaction is what is China's consent. But having said that more people to try and balance -- relationship with China. Because I don't think he wants. Tensions fiscally. I don't think she's jumping would want that -- -- So. You know there's going to be an interesting was the question being within a few days now. And I expect the focus that to be on now. I'm managing the borders as where there is they economy. Indian Ocean. The Indian Ocean is named I would regard this as appropriate for a country responsible for the Indian Ocean right now in terms of democracy guarding its border labs. The Indian Ocean and if you Trace route to Tokyo you'd describe pretty much. An important part of the world for the Chinese to take possession. Is that their plan. To own everything from the Yellow Sea all the way to Madagascar are. I think his -- is the station as effective as concern in the east -- -- is concerned. That is the subject in this C east sea and the embassy that the Chinese have made it explicitly cared that they want to dominate the entire area. And it did they came to old she was that was quick vote the stated that between almost the end or -- in the region. The into the ocean this certainly expanding their reach and defense in this web site also. Are fighting bases on the -- course. In order to ensure that presence in the Indian Ocean. So I think they'll probably these guns. Which could be which could they were trying to legitimize within the next five days. Does mr. Modi have a response to that is Japan a response to the ambitions of the Indian Ocean from Asia. Web Japan is there's two -- objective. One is to. Ten. I've been getting -- from Japan's ability not only economy which is very important. And to get I technology from them. The second is to build up a golf activity. In difference. Capabilities and strengths. Between both the countries. And we should see. Increased number of exercises in the years -- there. Between with the Japanese and Indian -- cooperating. And possibly the US navy to. Jerry does the BJP party to which which -- had a sweeping mandate this spring. Does -- have a settled China policy or are they sort of stumbling trying to find the right balance. Between inserting. Territorial sovereignty plus also trying to have a good economic relations with China BJP is the ruling party and and it's mr. -- is part yes. Let's start well he's. I don't BJP has I'm appreciative that there mandate unprecedented for the last thirty years. And so -- in the position to. Implement their policies I think the basic policy will be. To be from a problem than the previous government. To be to push back whenever they feel that this -- either being too aggressive. I -- the same time try and engage them all the economic front. I'd rather it has a bit of the common attitude -- that's going to be a balancing act that will be written be -- -- you've watched China a long time are you surprised. By she gin kings aggression even. The aggression mixed with what you have to say is -- Mao is some did you see that coming. Which we've been seeing its system other than seven and personally I've been sort of scorching that this is edited it. I'm certainly. I think Portugal. Paved the way and Rasheed jumping has activated the process. And that's obviously now. That we he's concentrated ball I use it -- him and so most of idea as I and I don't busy being implemented. And the assertiveness on -- donations. -- -- -- -- I think do a very much on the way. What is going to be the focus of Indian defense policy are they going to be putting more into the army which would be protecting the Himalayas. Or they could have been focusing more on the Indian Ocean and building up a bigger -- Where they were already started beefing up border defenses and building up in the army. But that would be glued. Attention being paid to the air force and the mean. And I think the big ticket which is is probably. Sort of the air force immediate concern. It means probably see them materializing within -- Sierra. We have a problem with Chinese cyber espionage and probably espionage in general. The problem is that we could list the weapons systems that have been compromised do you have a -- do you have a similar problem in Indio or is there talk of a similar problem. Of Chinese cyber espionage. When that have been well -- -- in these reports indicating. Chinese cyber attacks or basic institutions in India. Particularly public utility installations and government offices. -- into the problem. The extent of which is not putting Norton because I think a lot of the similar companies. You know private companies. I haven't sort of stake in the I would -- -- -- at least the audit and that the attacks. But the government agencies which are wanting it. Maybe concern about the into these number of -- subsidy base. From. Origins inside job. Final question as to Gordon Gordon are you surprised that she -- -- in the midst of the two monster does that surprise you to see that in the time -- but -- took me by surprise I think he should be there of course. But for the times to say it that's another thing today Iran daddy is -- former civil servant watching China. In Delhi Gordon Chang of Forbes dot com. She Jim King Vladimir Putin and Baghdad together. I'm John that.